Half-Orcs: PnP vs BG/IWD

Raduziel

I was checking the Complete Book of Humanoids yesterday to help my DM build a NPC for our PnP game and had a little surprise checking the Half-Orcs max and min stats. Here they follow:

Adjustments: +1 STR, +1 CON, -2 CHA

STR: 18

DEX: 17

CON: 19

INT: 17

WIS: 14

CHA: 12

So, why in BG and IWD can we get way beyond these numbers (specially STR that is sort of gamebreaking)?

If those bonus and penalties are to be applied after the stated numbers above, should the Half-Orc be allowed a max of 20 natural Constitution?

Is there another source that overcomes CBoH and I'm not aware of?

Thanks!

Lord_Tansheron

BG is not a 1:1 carbon copy of the DnD rules. They took some liberties adjusting various values compared to PnP, probably to make the game less complicated for people not well-versed in PnP DnD. Also because the entire game system is simplified to a degree in the first place, different balance concerns come into play.

Raduziel

@Lord_Tansheron That I'm aware of, but I can't see why they didn't caped the Half-Orc STR at 18. It wouldn't be the end of the world.

Pantalion

Well for starters, you're misreading it, those are maximum rolls permitted for each race, and according to "Player Options" the maximum for Half Orcs is 18/17/18/17/14/12.

After the maximum/minimum rolls are met, only then is the statistic modified, so PnP Half-Orc statistics range from 7-19/3-17/9-19/3-17/3-14/1-10.

As to the difference with BG, they switched the penalty from pointless charisma to at least occasionally important Intelligence, while removing the "hidden" -6 Charisma, -4 Wisdom, -1 Intelligence and -1 Dexterity, presumably for the same reason that Dwarves' 3-17 Dexterity was converted to a -1, because "hidden" -12 stat penalties would be hard to implement and, considering that full Orcs have a 6-16 wisdom and 5-14 Charisma, made absolutely no sense.

Raduziel

Thank you, @Pantalion

Don't think it's a matter of misreading. The Complete Book of Humanoids states the stats above very clearly, we were just consulting different sources.

If CBoH were exposing the maximum rolls, should not be a "19" there because 3d6 range from 3-18.

But it is good to know that there's another TSR official source to backbone a better build for half-orcs.

This questions is crystal clear for me now.

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Pantalion

subtledoctor said:

Stat ranges (before bonuses/penalties) would not be hard to implement. There is a .2da file for it built into the game...

Pantalion's discussion notwithstanding (and I think he misinterprets things - IIRC half-orcs were indeed capped at 18 STR in PnP), IMHO the way Bioware implemented half-orcs is awful. It went from a somewhat handicapped race that called for really good role-playing, to pretty much "munchkin superhero." (And then Beamdog goes and makes a min-maxed half-Orc NPC that illegally uses their new munchkin-superhero class... is it possible that a game company could actually troll its players? )

It may say something else in another book, but there's not much room for misinterpetation in what I'm reading:

Player's Options: Skills and Powers Book.

Chapter 3, Table 14: Racial Requirements.

Half-orc
Str: 6/18
Dex 3/17
Con 8/18
Int 3/17
Wis 3/14
Cha 3/12

Racial Ability Adjustments:

Once the character's ability scores have been determined, the race chosen, and the Racial Requirements table consulted, modify the ability scores based on the Racial Adjustments table.

Table 15: Racial Adjustments gives Half-orc +1 Str, +1 Con, -2 Cha.


It also explicitly says in a later section: "The ability score adjustments noted are applied after a character has met the required scores. Some of these adjustments can elevate a humanoid or monstrous character to ability scores of 19 or 20, or reduce a characteristic to 2".

So: Roll dice. Qualify for the race by rolling within those scores. Add 1/1/-2.

And right below this it also has stats for PC Orcs:

Orc:

Str: 5/17
Dex 3/17
Con 8/18
Int 3/16
Wis 3/16
Cha 5/14

Orcs: +1 Strength, -2 Charisma.

So by breeding with a species that was weaker, more frail, smarter, wiser and more Charismatic, Orcs got a half-breed that was... Stronger, tougher, tiny bit smarter, less wise and less charismatic.

It makes about as much sense as Racial Level Limits - it's designed to push the human Master Race ahead of everyone else, and discourage players from playing different races, nothing more, nothing less.


As to whether Dorn is min-maxed, I disagree. He has one high stat, several middling stats, and an appalling constitution for a front-liner. Half the Fighter-types in the game have 18+ strength, three have multiple 18s - Viconia, Korgan, and post-test Anomen - and many more have multiple 17s. Dorn is neither a superman nor even above average, Korgan outdoes him in every way.

Raduziel

Dorn being a Half-Orc Blackguard is cheese enough for me.

Discounting Dorn and the NPC hidden in the spoiler tag, the Fighters STR through all BG Saga are:

Khalid: STR 15

Ajantis: STR 17

Kivan: STR 18/12 (but it's kind of useless for an Archer)

Minsc: STR 18/93 (we have a winner)

Coran: STR 14

Yeslick: STR 15

Jaheira: STR 15

Montaron: STR 16

Kagain: STR 16

Shar-Teel: STR 18/58 (third place)

Dorn: STR 19

Keldorn: STR 17

Valygar: STR 17

Mazzy: STR 15 (may cast self-buff to up to 18/00)

Anomen: STR 18/52

Korgan: 18/77 (second place)

Sarevok: 18/00

So having a starting 19 in Strength is sort of a big deal, despite the others stats. And it's kind of unfair to compare Dorn's stats with any other Fighter-type.

The closest we have to Dorn is Minsc, but IMHO if you give a full plate and send a Ranger into the front lines you're just playing wrong the class.

(And it makes me wonder if Minsc would be a better Barbarian or Justifier than a pure-class Ranger).

Alexisisinneed

Why are we having this discussion? The only good orc or half-orc is a dead one.

But more on a serious note. Having a 19 strength with an half-orc bersserker wielding a two handed sword is really op. So I guess that makes up for having such a limited class choice.

cloudkillbeatsall

I may be wrong but isn't the +1 strength the half-orc gets supposed to push you up into the next tier of 18 strength as opposed to giving you 19 strength? For example, 18/01 goes to 18/51, 18/51 goes to 18/76 and so on. The only way you can get 19 strength as a half-orc is if you roll 18/00.

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Pantalion

cloudkillbeatsall said:

I may be wrong but isn't the +1 strength the half-orc gets supposed to push you up into the next tier of 18 strength as opposed to giving you 19 strength? For example, 18/01 goes to 18/51, 18/51 goes to 18/76 and so on. The only way you can get 19 strength as a half-orc is if you roll 18/00.

I think this is how tomes and manuals are supposed to work (and it goes up in /10s or something), but by the Rules As Written, a +1 strength for a monstrous humanoid like half-orc just goes straight up to 19.


Regarding Dorn's blackguard-ness... Eh, I'd rather Blackguard was a fighter kit as it should be, the whole thing is strange and weird.

I will say that his total stat roll is 90, which is the highest outside of the bro-spawn, it's just very, very poorly allocated, with 14 con being identical to 7 con, 16 charisma being identical to 3 charisma, 10 Intelligence being one hit worse than 11 Intelligence, and 15 wisdom not mattering squat either since he's a Paladin, not a cleric, and Paladins are lame.

As it is, an optimised Dorn should have been a Fighter/Cleric with 19/17/19/11/14/10 which, ironically, would have been perfectly legal PnP stat limitation.

Bigfish

19 Strength isn't that big a deal. Dorn isn't cheesed out nearly as much as he could be, and 19 STR is simple a guaranteed 18/00 with +1 damage and a higher carrying weight/bash.

I don't have any 3E manuals handy, but wasn't 19 STR totally possible for a half-orc in the player manual? That fits more with the what was going on with bits of 3E being stapled on to BG2 because that was what WotC was trying to push.

Raduziel

When you talk about odds, 19 STR is a big deal.

How many times you get a 90+ roll in your character creation, but with an awful exceptional Strength?

And "Players Options", all three of them, are not 3E material. They're from good and old 2E.

Pantalion said:

Regarding Dorn's blackguard-ness... Eh, I'd rather Blackguard was a fighter kit as it should be, the whole thing is strange and weird.

Couldn't agree more.

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Osigold

I suspect it's the result of "third edition preview" syndrome, since IIRC it was added along with the Sorcerer and the Barbarian. Neither of those guys were handled appropriately for 2nd Edition rules, either: The Barbarian's rage bonuses being copied from 3rd Edition was madness, since +4 Strength and +4 Constitution mean massively more in 2nd Edition than they do in 3rd, and the Sorcerer gets his 3rd edition spell progression which doesn't take note of the extra level that mages have to wait for 6th level spells in 2nd edition, meaning he's reaching new plateaus of spells at the same levels as mages at and after 12th level when an intended element of the trade-off is that he should be forced to wait another level.

There's a lot they could fix with all this stuff if they wanted to and Wizards were happy to let them.

As for the half-orc as he exists in BG, yeah, he's a munchkin superhero... but then again, I've played games featuring half-giants in both computer format and tabletop, and they're even stronger, and everything seemed to hold up pretty well regardless.

Raduziel

There's a five year chasm between Player's Options (1995) and the pitiful 3E (2000). Don't think it's a preview syndrome.

Pantalion

Honestly if any races strike me as munchkin super heroes, it's... Well, it's the munchkins. Strength items are everywhere, but that shorty save bonus is unbeatable. Gnomes are the powergamer's choice for mage multis, dwarves for Fighter multis, and Half-Orcs occupy some special little stool in the corner where shorter, better races praise them for not needing to use a commonly available belt to get a good strength score.

Bigfish

Raduziel said:

When you talk about odds, 19 STR is a big deal.

How many times you get a 90+ roll in your character creation, but with an awful exceptional Strength?

I usually don't worry about it since I'll get the tome of jumping up to 5 strength tiers underneath Candlekeep. High Strength is really only a big deal at lower levels and for multiclass fighters who could really use the THACO boost. Usually the issue is more about having high key stats while still having enough INT to read and enough CHA to avoid being told to stick it where the sun don't shine by NPCs.

And in IWD I'm just happy to be able to distribute points as I need without having to worry about weirdly suboptimal yahoos trying to force their way in to my party.

Osigold

Raduziel said:

There's a five year chasm between Player's Options (1995) and the pitiful 3E (2000). Don't think it's a preview syndrome.

Not the Player's Option half-orc (which is reasonable enough) but the Baldur's Gate half-orc. He wasn't true to the second edition rules because he was released when they were trying to hype up 3rd edition, and obeying stat maximums outside of whatever you could roll plus or minus the modifiers would be a very 2nd edition thing to do.

Gotural

I agree wholeheartedly with @Pantalion , with so many ways to increase your STR as a Charname and so many items that set STR to a fixed value I don't see the Half-Orc as a very munchkin race. On the other hand, these Shorty Saves...