About Statistics Revision.
Hoo
Member Posts: 128
Hello, I'd like to discuss about the topic.
My suggestion and the reasons are as belows:
INT: Higher INT should give additional spell slots for Mages according to its point.
WIS: This current bonus (additional spell slots for Druids/Clerics) is good, but it needs to be revised slightly imo. The bonus should keep increasing until 25 WIS.
DEX: This current bonus (additional thieving skill points for Thieves, and partially for Bards/Rangers) is good, but it need to be revised, too. Why the higher DEX gives lesser thieving skill points bonuses (+5 -> +3) even though obtaining higher stats get harder and harder?
CHA: This stats should give additional spell slots for Bards/Sorcerer imo. Since Baldur's Gate is CRPG game, not TRPG, so this stats hardly be useful in aspect of major situation (generally, combat is the most important and the the closest situation in CRPG). No one would want to select higher CHA in exchange for the other stats points. The change at least makes it shine to Bards/Sorcerer because these classses/kits require higher CHA at character making progress.
STR, CON, DEX: You would noticed that I'm arguing that each stat should give unique bonus to specific class(es). INT for Mages, DEX for Thieves (though Bards/Rangers can obtain a little advantages), WIS for Druids/Cleric, CHA for Bards/Sorcerer. According to these rules, Warriors also should have differentiated bonus from related stats.
However, STR/CON/DEX are closely related with Warriors. In vanilla, Warriors can get 18++ STR and more HP bonuses from higher CON. But I felt that these bonuses are not so reasonable because,
A. STR
Any classes can obtain STR bonuses when they selects half-orc as race, and they are even able to get it by using +STR items. And, only specific class can be obtainable unique bonus from a specific stats; Mages can not take thieving skill points bonuses from higher DEX, and Mages having higher CHA can not obtain addtional spell slots, etc.
B. CON
Honestly, I thought that the HP bonus system of AD&D is very unfair. After a character reached over 10 level, they can get more HP per level up when they have ++16 CON only. This forces players to get higher CON points when they makes a new character of any classes. 30 level thief having 10 CON just take 6D10 HP, but if the character haves 16 CON his/her HP would become 6D10 + 2*30. No stats are affected by character's level except CON!
So, I think that Warriors' STR bonus/CON bonus should be modifed as follows:
A. STR
Warriors will take +2 THAC0/DMG bonuses than general case. That is, 18 STR Clerics can obtain +2 DMG and +1 THAC0, but 18 STR Warriors will obtain +4 DMG and +3 THAC0. Since Warriors' innate abilities are physical strength, rather than special abilities like spell casting or thieving skills, additional physical-related bonuses are reasonbable for them imo. This makes that, for example, 15 STR Fighter still be stronger than 15 STR Thief, as 15 DEX Thief can obtain at least small thieving skills bonuses.
B. CON
How many HP bonuses according to CON value is not a big deal, but the additional HP bonuses after 10 level is the problem imo. So I'd like to suggest that CON bonuses after 10 level should be removed and fixed HP bonuses need to be given according to classes. Warriors might obtain +3 HP per level after 10 level, Rogues +2 per level, Mages +1 level, and so on.
Additionally, as I mentioned before, DEX is also important stats for Warriors, so DEX might need to give +2 AC bonuses and +2 THAC0 bonuses for ranged weapons like case of STR.
What do you think about these revision?
My suggestion and the reasons are as belows:
INT: Higher INT should give additional spell slots for Mages according to its point.
WIS: This current bonus (additional spell slots for Druids/Clerics) is good, but it needs to be revised slightly imo. The bonus should keep increasing until 25 WIS.
DEX: This current bonus (additional thieving skill points for Thieves, and partially for Bards/Rangers) is good, but it need to be revised, too. Why the higher DEX gives lesser thieving skill points bonuses (+5 -> +3) even though obtaining higher stats get harder and harder?
CHA: This stats should give additional spell slots for Bards/Sorcerer imo. Since Baldur's Gate is CRPG game, not TRPG, so this stats hardly be useful in aspect of major situation (generally, combat is the most important and the the closest situation in CRPG). No one would want to select higher CHA in exchange for the other stats points. The change at least makes it shine to Bards/Sorcerer because these classses/kits require higher CHA at character making progress.
STR, CON, DEX: You would noticed that I'm arguing that each stat should give unique bonus to specific class(es). INT for Mages, DEX for Thieves (though Bards/Rangers can obtain a little advantages), WIS for Druids/Cleric, CHA for Bards/Sorcerer. According to these rules, Warriors also should have differentiated bonus from related stats.
However, STR/CON/DEX are closely related with Warriors. In vanilla, Warriors can get 18++ STR and more HP bonuses from higher CON. But I felt that these bonuses are not so reasonable because,
A. STR
Any classes can obtain STR bonuses when they selects half-orc as race, and they are even able to get it by using +STR items. And, only specific class can be obtainable unique bonus from a specific stats; Mages can not take thieving skill points bonuses from higher DEX, and Mages having higher CHA can not obtain addtional spell slots, etc.
B. CON
Honestly, I thought that the HP bonus system of AD&D is very unfair. After a character reached over 10 level, they can get more HP per level up when they have ++16 CON only. This forces players to get higher CON points when they makes a new character of any classes. 30 level thief having 10 CON just take 6D10 HP, but if the character haves 16 CON his/her HP would become 6D10 + 2*30. No stats are affected by character's level except CON!
So, I think that Warriors' STR bonus/CON bonus should be modifed as follows:
A. STR
Warriors will take +2 THAC0/DMG bonuses than general case. That is, 18 STR Clerics can obtain +2 DMG and +1 THAC0, but 18 STR Warriors will obtain +4 DMG and +3 THAC0. Since Warriors' innate abilities are physical strength, rather than special abilities like spell casting or thieving skills, additional physical-related bonuses are reasonbable for them imo. This makes that, for example, 15 STR Fighter still be stronger than 15 STR Thief, as 15 DEX Thief can obtain at least small thieving skills bonuses.
B. CON
How many HP bonuses according to CON value is not a big deal, but the additional HP bonuses after 10 level is the problem imo. So I'd like to suggest that CON bonuses after 10 level should be removed and fixed HP bonuses need to be given according to classes. Warriors might obtain +3 HP per level after 10 level, Rogues +2 per level, Mages +1 level, and so on.
Additionally, as I mentioned before, DEX is also important stats for Warriors, so DEX might need to give +2 AC bonuses and +2 THAC0 bonuses for ranged weapons like case of STR.
What do you think about these revision?
1
Comments
Yes, non-warriors can get the same benefits from STR once they reach level 19, but warriors (for a large level range) will have better THAC0 and will be able to attack more times per round than non-warriors.
As for CON, I'm almost certain that after level 10 you don't get any additional HP due to CON bonuses.
I agree that Charisma good use a boost, but to be honest I think the boost it needs is in more situations that use it. There are countless situations where you're given different dialogue choices based on your personality and alignment; there are precious few situations where a negotiation with an NPC can be influenced by a high charisma. Most of these are in Candlekeep. :P
Priest bonus spells are fine as they are; remember that the table in the manual lists cumulative bonus spells. So at Wis 25, you'll get several bonus spells of every level (1 through 7).
Also recall that Wis and Int provide bonuses to Lore, which means that a high-wisdom/intelligence mage will be able to identify a lot of items without resorting to magic.
As for sorcerers and bards...I don't know. Arcane spells are already pretty powerful, and I don't know that a sorcerer needs more spells per day to be viable. I think just adding more charisma-based events in dialogue would "fix" this problem.
Charisma is the main stat that needs to be less dumpy. I usually max it out but I tend to play bards or want to have Viconia in my party and high Cha helps keep fights from breaking out.
And, in case of APR bonuses for Fighters, I can say Thieves get Thieving skills points per level up, and Mages/Druids/Clerics get additional spell slots bonuses according to level up. The APR bonuses are just equivalent to these imo. What I focus on is "STAT BONUS".
Yes, INT and WIS give additional lore, however, EVERY class can take advantage of this. Currently only DEX and WIS gives specific bonuses for specific classes (Thieves and Druids/Cleric), and this bonuses are applied from relatively lower stats (14 WIS Druid can obtain an additional 1level spell bonus) comparing with STR bonus of Warriors (They MUST take 18STR to obtain unique bonuses for Warriors).
The other stats, INT/CHA, neither give any unique stats for specific classes, nor give any general and useful bonuses in combat for every class. Actually, INT reduces failure rate of recording spells to spell book from scrolls, but this is just likely to be penalty and make game boring, not be useful bonus at all.
This is not true. Once you stop gaining dice rolls for levels, you also stop gaining extra HP for high constitution. A level 30 thief with 16 CON will only have a potential of 20 more HP than another level 30 thief with CON between 7-14. The +2 hp you see post level 10 is simply because you gain 2 HP a level beyond no matter what.
-----------
I'm not going to comment about my feelings on how broken the AD&D stat system was, especially for the IE games. Just wanted to point out a few errors. I agree the stats needed to be overhauled, but 3e did that for me quite well.
Con isn't as you described. For the first 9 levels, the con bonus is applied to a die. For fighters, d10. A level 9 fighter with 16 con gets 9d10 +18 hp. For every level after 9, the fighter gains a flat 3 hp. It has nothing to do with Con. Also, Con is tied to the Shorty-Saves bonus, but that's another matter.
Your scheme of stats would be fine if you only changed the mentals; however, as you said, fighters need all 3 physical stats. The physical stats really don't need a change especially since Con already does that (Extra hp for only Fighters with 17+ con).
Adding a straight up bonus to the effect of a fighter's strength is unnecessary, in my opinion. Just think of their "Unique class stat boost" coming from Con, not strength.
Which means that potentially a wizard would get more out of a high Constitution than a Fighter. But a Fighter gets a greater bonus for those first nine levels.
So technically, yes. A thief or mage with 15 or 16 CON will have 1 or 2 more HP than an equivalently constituted warrior.
All it takes is going up to 17 constitution for it to mean more HP for that warrior, though. 9x3 > 10x2. Then you go factor in a dwarf gaining +5 HP a level if he starts with 19 CON. Needless to say, 9x5 > 10x2.
But I guess I'm getting off topic.
Good suggestions. Really like the idea of CHA giving Bards a spell bonus.
The game's implementation of INT bugs me the most. It gives you no bonuses outside the size of your spell book and an ability to scribe without error. I'm pretty sure an experienced player could roll a Mage with a 10 INT and be just fine. (Plus, I find the whole scribing mechanic to be deeply stupid).
So there's that, and the fact that everything is pretty much a dump stat for Sorcs.
I also liked something from Knights of the Old Republic, where if you were using a Charismatic option, it would display (Charisma) in the dialogue option, so you would know it was there because of your charisma.
as for stats, they are fine, but missing features for Wis and Int need to be implemented.
>30 level thief having
There is the problem, not the stats. lvl30 anything is just silly.