Improve Wizard Slayer

Anton

(Reddit request by thschutt)

The Wizard Slayer is a very cool concept but is an extremely underpowered class-kit. It receives only +1% magic resistance per level. Even at level 20, a Wizard Slayer would only have +20% magic resistance. In comparison, a Monk receives +3% magic resistance per level, so at level 20 they would have +60% magic resistance. Bioware did try to buff the Wizard Slayer a bit for the epic levels above 20 by adding some extra magic resistance, but it is very irregular, so having a steady, consistent progression for all levels would be a better idea, say +2% or maybe +3% magic resistance per level. Their spell interruption effects are solid.

Anton

Comments from Reddit:

[–]williamimm 3 points 1 month ago
Wizard Slayer Rebalancing by aVENGER (same guy as RR and aTWEAKS) has done a great job at fixing the Wizard Slayer while sticking true to the original idea.

[–]kutovy 1 point 7 days ago
+1! In its current state this kit is rubbish. Wizard Slayer Rebalancing mod is a good example of what can be done.
http://www.shsforums.net/topic/49205-wizard-slayer-rebalancing/

AzL0n

The Wizard slayer definitely needs to be made more powerful.

''say +2% or maybe +3% magic resistance per level''

Yeah I'd say 3%. Not being able to use any magic items besides weapon and armor is a huge disadvantage so it needs to be a significant boost.

smeagolheart

I haven't seen a wizard slayer mod that I like yet. I really want to like Wizard slayers but the mods I've seen make it where you can't dual class them and the mods I've seen do not make them much different than the original flawed class.

I'd like to see what overhaul can come up with to make this class more compelling.

sarevok57

a wizard slayer gets 80 % mr at level 40, i think that is allright, plus i think that they are thinking that 10 % culmative spell failure is insanely powerful which it is, so i think that is the reason why they did it the way it is

Tanthalas

The problem I have with the 10% cumulative spell failure thing is that if I can actually hit the Wizard that cumulative spell failure means nothing because the mage is already as good as dead.

sarevok57

maybe they should only make it so 50% is the maximum failure they can have? i rememeber fighting irenicus in spell hold and i smacked him up all silly like, and he was still casting spells off, and i was like hmmmm, your spell failure should be around 120 % or so and still getting spells off aye? but i guess it is irenicus after all

smeagolheart

Irenicus is probably immune to spell failure then, boss immunities and all. Boss fights aside it tends to be like @Tanthalas says, if you can hit a mage then you are inside his defenses and he's going to get squished soon so the window of enjoying the spell failure is a very minor part of the fight and giving up all he has to give up just for that makes it not worth it.

sarevok57

what if they wizard slayer was exactly the way he is now, except he starts with 10% instead of 0, and still have it max out at 80% i think that would be fair, because in bg 1, having 18% is pretty substantial i would think

Winthal

the concept of the wizard slayer seems abit flaky to begin with... why can't he use magic items other than weapons+armor? Seems like it's some kind of moral code, if you hate magic and magic-users, you don't want anything magical around you. You want all magical stuff dead n buried. Period. So why then can you use *some* magical items, but not others? It seems like a cheesy double standard... like a paladin that gets to use an evil-aligned Sword, but everything else has to be demon-free.

Either he uses magical stuff with no restrictions, or he uses none imo. And since BG is a game filled with magical stuff, no one in their right mind will play a character that can't use any of the goodies... to fix this class, the concept itself needs to change abit, give him another drawback and let him use whatever items he wants. And yes, the spell failure ability really does nothing.. maybe if it applied to ranged attacks, but as it stands, no.

smeagolheart

I'd say that would be a better balanced kit if they did allow Wizard Slayers to use magic items, kept the spell failure ability but prevented dual classing. And even then I'd still prefer a kensai or berserker and the wizard slayer would be not much different from a pure fighter except no dualing

Winthal

as it stands right now, can a Wizard Slayer dual class to Wizard Slayer/mage? (and then be forced to perform harakiri/throw himself off the nearest cliff?)

caruga

I don't think the % increase should be done as it could be too good. Rather, I think they should receive an activated ability that temporarily boosts their magic resistance and saving throws by a lot. Then when you see a mage you might slap this on before the fight, or maybe wait until he starts casting offensive spells.

Maybe even allow wizard-slayers to use fully magical armour until they wish to turn this ability on? Or maybe have the class effect disable the enchantment effects of gear, but still allow you to wear them as vanilla armour? I think that would be the neatest solution, if the engine supports it and it doesn't take a ton of work (i.e. the game data actually specifies on an item whether a bonus is due to an enchantment effect).

Anton

Or maybe have the class effect disable the enchantment effects of gear, but still allow you to wear them as vanilla armour?

Agreed, great suggestion.

caruga

If the choose kit when dual-classing idea is implemented, it might be possible to level up a thief to 'use any item' and then branch into wizard-slayer. I think it would be a long enough level-progression for the power to ramp up that it would be balanced, and near end game you could get your magic resistance stupidly high with human flesh, carsomyr, etc. In fact I might make that my character build when EE comes out if it's an option. Think the soul of a Korgan Bloodaxe (always talking about gutting mages) but with antimagical powers.

Hmm, in fact doing it in reverse is possible now... if you wielded carsomyr it would be sick. The strongest build is probably the above, though...

geselle

You don't need to actually hit a mage as a wizard slayer. Stone skin and mirror image don't prevent your spell failure from stacking. Only weapon immunity prevents that, as far as i know. Thats why i think wizard slayers are fine, even though i think, he shouldn't be allowed to use magic weapons and armors from a rp view, but that would really break the class for ToB.

sarevok57

i remember the first time i ever played SoA i was a wizard slayer ( and even for the next few game plays i was also a wizard slayer) i thought it was fun, i was so obsessed at the fact you could have MR i was like heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah, i would always skill them with 2 weapons and shish-ca-bob baddies, of coarse they are only built for one thing, and that is to kill wIz-ZaRdS and they do it very effectively i dont know why they need to be revamped, we need to remember that they are usefull for what they do and if we vamp them up more, then they will over power their base class, there must be balance, BaL-lAnCe i say

caruga

Tanthalas said:

The problem I have with the 10% cumulative spell failure thing is that if I can actually hit the Wizard that cumulative spell failure means nothing because the mage is already as good as dead.

Doesn't the spell failure effect ignore stoneskin, illusion, weapon immunities etc? I thought it did, but if not, perhaps that could be an ideal buff to the kit.

FrozenDervish

I agree with the irregular spell resist being in need of fixing.

Quartz

caruga said:

Tanthalas said:

The problem I have with the 10% cumulative spell failure thing is that if I can actually hit the Wizard that cumulative spell failure means nothing because the mage is already as good as dead.

Doesn't the spell failure effect ignore stoneskin, illusion, weapon immunities etc? I thought it did, but if not, perhaps that could be an ideal buff to the kit.

I agree with this. I have actually never played a Wizard Slayer because based on the description I always wondered "like a hit that does DAMAGE, or just a hit?" That would make ALL the difference in the world. If it has to be a hit that does damage then Wizard Slayers are extremely useless, if not then it could actually be useful.

Mungri

Ooooh, does Wizard Slayer / Thief and Use any item work like it does for Kenseis? I never considered that.

bikertiax

The P&P version has different rules, which may make it better (perhaps too much so).

For your consideration:

Special Benefits:

Protection from Evil: As a result of the treatment from his elders, the Wizard Slayer radiates a protection from evil aura to a distance of one foot. The aura is constant and permanent; it otherwise acts exactly as the 1st level priest spell.

Know Alignment: A Wizard Slayer can use this ability at will by touching the targeted creature, character, or object. The creature is allowed a save to resist this ability.

Detect Illusion: A Wizard Slayer has a 5% chance per level of determining that a phenomenon with illusory, visual, auditory, or other sensory components is actually an illusion. This chance can't exceed 75%. He may use this ability twice per day, but only once per phenomenon.

Detect Magic: A Wizard Slayer has a 25% chance at 1st level and a 5% bonus per level thereafter, up to a maximum of 90% to detect magic.

Attack Magical Creatures: A Wizard Slayer can strike at magical creatures normally immune to nonmagical weapons. At 4th level he can strike as a +1 weapon, he gains an additional +1 for every even number level after that, up to a max of +5 at 12th level.

The Wizard Slayer gains a magic resistance of 2% per level. Whenever a Wizard Slayer hits an opponent a 25% spell failure is applied to the target. This percentage is cumulative.

Special Hindrances:

No Magic Items: Unable to use any magical items except melee weapons.

Anton

bikertiax said:

..Attack Magical Creatures: A Wizard Slayer can strike at magical creatures normally immune to nonmagical weapons. At 4th level he can strike as a +1 weapon, he gains an additional +1 for every even number level after that, up to a max of +5 at 12th level.

Now this one is very good indeed!

bikertiax

Indeed, but whether it could be coded is a question.

Furthermore, a 12th level character with +5 weapons may be overpowered.

sarevok57

just like my level 10 cavalier with carsomyr, yeah its pretty beast

bikertiax

Well then, the programming issue still stands.

Tanthalas

They managed to program it for Monks, but in that case they made "fist weapons" for the Monk, not sure if that could be applied to weapons.

But yeah, at least that ability would grant them something interesting.

Millardkillmoore

Boost it's MR to 3% and replace cumulative spell failure with a dispel effect when it attacks. That way, it can cut through a mage's defenses instead of uselessly interrupting spellcasting 5 seconds before killing him.

Xavioria

Well there was another class I'm thinking of that was just as underpowered (actually moreso) and that's the beast master.... honestly I think that certain classes just need to be shifted around a bit because honestly, who's going to play with them?

And make Valygar a Wizard Slayer, I mean really...

bill_zagoudis

Currently the wizard slayer is a great idea for a fighter kit but lacking in execution,i know this is the case in AD&D rules but could we make a small exception to make the kit just a little bit better?

I believe most of us will agree that it's the worse fighter kit,worse even than plain fighter as the magic resistance bonus is good but only starts showing it late game,and the 10% cumulative spell failure is pointless as if you're past a wizard's defenses he will die very soon and it will never have the chance to stack(it would be rare to see actual spell failure due to this ability rather than simple hits),on the other hand the inability to use any misc magical equipment is a great disadvantage,even though in paper it doesn't seem so,early in the game is no big deal tbh,but in SoA,you loose:

a)loosing acces to belts means that your strengt will not be increased unless you use Agruavadal or Crom Fayr
b)loosing acces to rings means that you loose the amazing ring of gax,along with possible ac bonuses or regeneration,also you cannot use ring of human influence
c)loosing acces to gauntlets means less thac0,even -1/2attack per round later with gloves of extraordinary specialization
d)loosing acces to amulets is arguably not that important
e)loosing acces to cloaks means less ac most likely
f)loosing acces to boots means that you cannot use boots of speed,and have to rely on mages for haste
g)loosing acces to the head slot means less ac/hp/thac0 once again(helm of balduran?)

overal a wizard slayer in the endgame will loose(depending on the player's gear choices) about 2ac,3 thac0,1/2 attack per round,~10 hp,2 damage,regenarion,various useful immunieties(poison/disease) and is stack with base stats

it seems that the kit was not designed with epic levels in mind where every slot confers significant bonuses

so what i am suggesting: remove completely the spell failure on hit bonus,i wouldn't even mind if we lost the ability to wield/specialize in ranged weapons(though it makes no rp sense) in order to be able to wear a limited amount of magical items: 1 ring maybe? or 2 items max?

jalden

I like it. Something should be done to balance it with the beserker and kensai classes even if it isn't this.

Also, as it is Inquisitors are much better wizard slayers than wizard slayers. That seems kind of odd.