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The role of demons in the world

So I was playing my first playthrough after 10 + years, and got to the place in chapter 5 where the drow try to summon a lesser demon lord, to help them. It is suggested that a creature like that can be immensely powerful.

This got me thinking, I have read all this lore about strong mortals who were able to "ascend", and become gods themselves. Are there cases of mortals becoming demons? What is the place of demons in the Forgotten Realms universe? I have only read lore about gods, but not anything yet about demons. Are they "lower" in the importance hierarchy of this world?

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  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470
    I don't know how it would be possible.

    I think it goes like this. Full blooded demon/devil/fiend ->Cambion(male)Succubus(female)those two are techinally half blooded->Triefling. The whole underworld bloodline is confusing because technically their not deities but just evil powerful creatures. But at the same time a really powerful demonic creature can create their own blackguards just like deities do with paladins so it's weird.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    Gods and Demons are not like two opposite factions struggling against each other and thus they do not have the same status.
    Any creature can ascend to godhood (As a lesser deity or even more, take Cyric), even animals (Okku the Bear god for example) or Fiends (Asmodeus is considered a greater deity). The Overgod Ao is the one that decides who ascend to godhood.

    As for your original question, well, technically, in FR lore, Devils are just a group of species much like primates for example. If you are not born of these species you cannot truly become one.
    EpicPain
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    Well, thank you for the piece of information, I did not know that. However, if I understand correctly, these "mortal souls" as you say, are the souls of the deads, which means you cannot, in your life, become a devil, you must be a soul for that, and the fact that you are not able to become one during your actual life is what I meant.
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    Demons have no role. They don't have a purpose.

    They are creatures made of pure Chaos and Evil. They exist for the sake of it. And they destroy for the sake of it.
    It is said that in the beginning there was only Chaos. Then Law was created (either by Ao or whatever) to oppose that Chaos.
    The Abyss is in a way a sentient cosmic force that spawns creatures of pure destructive chaos to spread more chaos.

    The first devils (Archdevils/Archdukes) were fallen angels. They were corrupted when fighting demons and turned evil, so Asmodeus made a pact with the Lawful Good gods to give them their own plane to do their business.
    That's according to the Fiendish Codex II.

    You could make a strong pact or deal with powerful devils that when you die, your soul would be turned into a Devil. Even a Demon perhaps.

    Of course it's not that easy and demons could very well turn you into a Dretch (lowest Demon) because "it's fun" and then eat you or squash you. A pact means nothing to them.

    And the Devils might very well twist the deal to make you a Lemure.
    "Yeah, you see you didn't read the fine print too well, it gives us full authority to demote you as we wish but we will also destroy your memories after turning you into a Lemure. Enjoy your short eternity."
    EpicPainBelgarathMTHJuliusBorisovHeindrich
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited February 2016



    Also interesting of note is that both Baatezu (devils) and Tanar'ri (demons) were created untold aeons ago by the Yugoloth in order to start the eternal Blood War.

    Might I get a link/source/citation for that statement?
    Even one of the links says this: "The baatezu and tanar’ri use yugoloths in the Blood War only because each fears the other might gain an advantage by using them."

    Is it Planescape ADnD lore? Because, with a quick glance, I didn't see that in any of the links you provided.
    Because the 3.5E Fiendish Codex I + II lore tell a different story.

    "In the beginning—and even before—chaos was all that existed. Out of it came demons—the living manifestations of chaos. Time had not yet been invented, so the demons fought each other continuously in a vortex of disorder over an immeasurable period.
    A state of raw chaos was intolerable to the universe, so a force arose to combat it—the power of law. From this principle of abstract order, a number of beings coalesced to combat the demons.
    "

    - Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, p. 4


    JuliusBorisovBelgarathMTH
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    Kamigoroshi
  • SceptenarSceptenar Member Posts: 606

    Also interesting of note is that both Baatezu (devils) and Tanar'ri (demons) were created untold aeons ago by the Yugoloth in order to start the eternal Blood War.

    This is not true the Baatezu were created in part from the angelic followers of Asmodeus, an angel originally tasked with fighting the demons before the creation of mortals. The majority were however created from mortal souls. Asmodeus basically tricked the gods into agreeing to a contract (The Pact Primeval) that allowed lawful evil souls to be diverted to punishment in hell, thus being turned into devils to serve the army of Asmodeus.

    Demons are the most ancient beings in the multiverse, they existed before the gods arrived to create order from chaos and create material worlds and mortals to inhabit them. The Tanar'ri demons most are familiar with is only a relatively recent form of demon that only came into existence when (chaotic evil) mortal souls were pulled into the Abyss. For example the first Tanari'ri demon that was spawned was Demogorgon, and legions more were created since.
    The original demons responsible for the creation of the Tanar'ri are the Obyriths, most likely the most ancient creatures in existence. These creatures are pure chaos and evil on a level most can't fathom. It is said that their form is so alien that just looking at one can drive you insane. They rarely appear in literature these days because the Tanar'ri have pretty much driven them into the deepest depths of the Abyss, but you may be familiar with some Obyrith demon lords like the Queen of Chaos (very big name in Greyhawk lore), Dagon, Pazuzu and Obox-Ob (an Obyrith lord that originally held the title "prince of demons").

    Yugoloths are indeed used as mercenaries in the Blood War, but they have no connection with the creation of demons and devils.

    Sources: Fiendish Codex I & II, and The Book of Vile Darkness
  • SceptenarSceptenar Member Posts: 606

    Baldur's Gate takes place in the context of 2E AD&D - same cosmos as Planescape: Torment. Thus, here the Planescape cosmology rules. That 3E Fiendish Codex is not canon. Just more idle theorizing by clueless primes, like as not...

    That is not really true. The 3rd edition rules were being developed during the creation of Baldur's Gate and the events to set up the change in rules were already being worked out by Wizards of the Coast, the creators of Baldur's Gate were privy to a lot of these changes because Baldur's Gate was part of Wizards of the Coasts multi-media strategy for 3rd edition D&D. Baldur's Gate 2 and Neverwinter Nights had already been greenlit by Wizards at the time, that's why both games are being foreshadowed in BG1. Baldur's Gate 2 is being foreshadowed by the Spider Queen who sais she was cursed by "Jon Icarus", and "Lord Foreshadow" mentions interesting Nights in Neverwinter.

    As far as the planar cosmology of 3rd edition, it is whole cloth based on the previous edition's cosmology. I mean the great wheel and everything in 3rd edition was just updated directly from Planescape. And all the lore on demons in 3rd edition was penned by the well known James Jacobs (a prolific writer now working for Paizo Publishing), I doubt there is a person on the earth who knows more about D&D's fiends than him. He has after all been an active contributor since the early 1980's.
    JuliusBorisovBelgarathMTH
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    @Archaos @Sceptenar I indeed recall reading that in one of Planescape's accessory books. Probably either Faces of Evil: The Fiends or Hellbound: The Blood War. Both books state that the Yugoloth are the masterminds behind the whole Blood War. They manipulate the Dukes of Hell, orchestrate the hordes of the Abyss Lords and even stripped whole powers off of both Baatezu and Tanar'ri. Furthermore it's mentioned that the Baernaloths positively created at least the Yugoloth and Gehreleth fiend species.

    But it's also true that dozen of conspiracy theories are written down inside Faces of Evil about the Yugoloth and their schemes. So I may not be correct about them having a hand in their neighbours creation after all. In either case, they are greatly informative books which I highly recommend every Planewalker to read at least once. :)
    JuliusBorisov
  • SceptenarSceptenar Member Posts: 606
    edited February 2016
    I would agree that the Yugoloths are masterminds indeed, and they are notoriously disloyal. They shift their allegiances constantly to ensure that neither of the sides come out on top as the endless blood war works to their advantage. That doesn't mean they masterminded the entire blood war.

    Looking at the Forgotten Realms wiki I did see mention of the theory that Baernaloths were behind the creation of both the Obyriths and Baatezu, however the page doesn't cite any sources and directly conflicts with other sources. So it's likely just a fan theory.

    I did some checking in the old 2nd edition books, and I found that the Yugoloths did not create demons. They did however (or at least their Baernaloth leaders did) create demodands, at least they are rumored to have created them. Demodands have some similarities to demons, but aren't demons. They can be either neutral evil or chaotic evil and inhabit the prison plane of Carceri. I assume this is why someone thinks they created the demons and devils.

    Source: 2nd edition Fiend Folio
    BelgarathMTH
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    You know what's odd is that there's actually plenty of lore on demons/devils/demon lords/etc., their history and how they became that way, compared to their counterparts, the lords of order and the celestials.

    Surely there've been demons/devils who grew tired of all the pointless destruction/scheming. Angelic beings/mortals have been demon lords/archdevils/gods/vestiges but how many examples do we know of the opposite?
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  • SceptenarSceptenar Member Posts: 606
    Try to obscure the truth all you want. But I know for a fact that the multiverse was created by two supreme beings, their names were E. Gary Gygax (1938 - 2008) and Dave Arneson (1947 - 2009). And if it weren't for them we wouldn't be having this discussion as all.
    BelgarathMTHillathid
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    @Kamigoroshi gave the right answer here

    Mortal don't ascend into demons/devils. They fall into it.

    At start there is three ways to become part of a fiend kind:
    1- The mortal have to make a pact selling your soul to a devil. When the mortal dies, the devil comes to the God of Death palace and reclaim the soul of the mortal instead of any deity that cloud have sought for it.
    2- The mortal have encountered during his life a demon using soul-sucking powers. Succubus/Inccubus are the best known for that, enticing mortals against sexual favor during which they drain their energy until the link between their body and soul is weak enough to rip it apart and bring it to the abyss
    3- The mortal had a faithless life, resulting in no god reclaiming his soul at his death. As a result, the God of Death jails the soul in the Wall of Damned to serve as a fence around his palace. Even if a forbidden act, some demons sometimes makes raids on the Wall to steal some souls from it.

    Mortal souls fallen in the hands of fiend are turned into larvaes. A low, and horrific existence as a brainless, difform, slaves used in the great eternal war between the Demon and Devils.
    Larvaes are immortal and doomed to an eternity of suffering in the end of their masters they can't disobey to being completly deprivated of willpower. They serve as meat in the great battles of the eternal war, and toys for the archfiends (for exemple, some larvae can be fused alive into a living, screaming chair for use in the new lair of a demon...), suffering horrible deaths and coming back to life again and again to serve again.

    Due to their usefulness they serve as a money for fiends, which is the main reason why devils and demons try to get ever more mortal souls.

    During their long long existence as a larvae, every kindness, goodness, charity or anything positive is washed out from the soul. The continuous pain and atrocity of this existence destroy anything that is not dispear and hatred.
    For most souls, the identity and memories are lost if they stay to long at this stade.

    It happens however than a particular larvae catch the attention of a superior fiend that will allow it to "Evolve" into a better fiend. It will still suffer and be abused, but at least, it will recover a bit of intelligence and sense of self.

    Point is: the newly "mane" knows most often only thing: he hates his masters, he hates everything, and he seeks only one thing: power to free himself from their grasp.
    From this point the fiend will live a life of pure lust for power, to raise in ranks and become the one who make other suffer, and not the one who suffers.
    Betraying, conspirating, stealing, murdering, everything he can do without being caught by this superiors (every fiend except the larvaes) and adversary (the other manes) he will attempt to slowly accumulate power until he can evolve again to a stronger form.

    Only the most evil and cunning fiends can reach high ranks of devils and demons. You cannot become a great demon if you're not ready to -everything- for power. A fiend does not care about anything else. Power is everything. So souls, are everything. Sometimes, they relish into making the other suffer, as a vengeance for everything they suffered, and still suffer into the end of their betters again, to appease their unlimited hatred.

    But power then hatred drives fiends. Nothing else. And power and hatred is what make them evolves. This way, they also create ever more friends, but stealing souls and turning them into more larvaes.
    However, most of larvae will never reach a better form. That's one of a million, one of a billion. Out of them, there is only an handful cases where the soul didn't stay a larvae long enough to loose every memory and part of its previous identity. Orcus being the most known.

    The process for a mortal to become a demon/devil is the most horrific thing that can be imagined. In fact, no mortal can even imagine it. Only a fiend knows what it is.
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited February 2016
    Sceptenar said:

    The original demons responsible for the creation of the Tanar'ri are the Obyriths, most likely the most ancient creatures in existence. These creatures are pure chaos and evil on a level most can't fathom. It is said that their form is so alien that just looking at one can drive you insane. They rarely appear in literature these days because the Tanar'ri have pretty much driven them into the deepest depths of the Abyss, but you may be familiar with some Obyrith demon lords like the Queen of Chaos (very big name in Greyhawk lore), Dagon, Pazuzu and Obox-Ob (an Obyrith lord that originally held the title "prince of demons").

    Quite true, but not fully, into the Forgotten Realms lore.
    This has been somewhat changed when the Far Realms where added to the lore.

    In far end the "Outer Realms", a place of the multiverse where the planes becomes so thin that the simple fact to take a step can sometimes make you get through several of them, lies the "Far Realms", a kingdom of pure Madness and Chaos in which a simple glimpse would turn the sanity of any mortal being of the prime plane into pulp.

    This is a place who reside the "Elder Evils", a race that the Aboleths describe as "a class of powerful alien entities who predate the gods"
    Knowing how alien the Aboleths are themselves, it means a lot.

    While it has been left (voluntary) unclear in the lore, the main interpretation is that Ao, the Overgod, exiled after a battle that no one but He remembers those beings into the Outer Plane after they started to create the Tana'ri, at least for those of them who refused to return and fade into the primordial chaos.

    What is granted is that those "Elder Evils" are described not as a threat to mortals, but litteraly to the cosmology itself: their coming into any world mean the total destruction of this world, the living creatures being part of it meaning nothing into this equation, the planes they reach being "simply" ripped into shreds and turned into more Chaos and Madness.

    Besides the Aboleth and some Illithids, the only beings found in the prime plane who know about the Elder Evils are the Star-pact Warlocks, who gain powers from those entities after an accidental contact with them through too much study of the stars (as described into the D&D4 book on Warlocks)... hopefuly for them, the contact is very very VERY thin, as they are sealed and kept afar from.... well... every power that currently have some sense of reason, including the demons themselves, who find them "too chaotic".
    Yup, that's "too chaotic" for beings of pure chaos, sir.... it means a lot, too.

    Neverless, how thin it could be, most Star-Pact Warlocks struggle everyday to maintain their sanity. And most fail at keeping an inch of it. The best of them, a handful, keep enough reason to merely seem "unstable" to other mortals.
    You don't get any contact, or any sorts, with the Elder Evils without severe wounds into your very mind.

    Elder Evils only knows why they fathom warlock powers to some mortal who caught their presence. And why they push them to perform absurd acts in return. Many could seem without evil consequences... but all other powers are wary about anything such a warlock do, as it could turn to be a scheme for an Elder Evils to find a path to enter the Prime Plane...

    Would it happen, nothing would survive it. Unless Ao himself... does something... if He can...

    ... but on the other side, the Elder Evils are so chaotic that those acts could not even have a reason to start with.

    Except those abominations and the star-pact warlocks, mortals don't that Elder Evils exists, even those, rare, who heard about the existence of the Far Relms. Elder Evils is a topic for over-powers, not mortals. This very topic is ffaaar beyond their field of influence.

    The Ancient Elves race, who has unrivaled magic knowledge long lost since, once pierced the veil to the Far Realm by creating a portal named the "Vast Gate": the only thing that is known as a result is that their civilization "imploded into bloody terror" from the knowledge they harvested from it.


    TL;DR: Demons have been created by Chtulu-like beings that you'll never see appear in any RPG based on the Forgotten Realms.
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited February 2016
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited February 2016
    Mmm that page needs a lot of updates, it lacks the Elder Evil from Firestorm Peak, the 10 from Wish Upon a Star, 5 from the Elder Evils book... and probably several other I can't track down, to only speak of those who reside in the Far Realm, which are the vast majority of them, in fact.

    Seems kinda outdated, and some informations doesn't seems accurate, also, but I lack the references to check that.
    Post edited by Moonheart on
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    @Moonheart I think many infos about them can be found in Lords of Madness, but I can't properly check right now.
  • ithildurnewithildurnew Member Posts: 273
    edited March 2016
    Always amusing to watch the debate between mortals attempting to fathom history and lore far beyond their ken. :wink:
    [Deleted User]
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,768

    Always amusing to watch the debate between mortals attempting to fathom history and lore far beyond their ken. :wink:

    Yes, our loose grasp on morality is a good example of our total inability to understand the nature of the universe around us.
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