The role of demons in the world
EpicPain
Member Posts: 19
So I was playing my first playthrough after 10 + years, and got to the place in chapter 5 where the drow try to summon a lesser demon lord, to help them. It is suggested that a creature like that can be immensely powerful.
This got me thinking, I have read all this lore about strong mortals who were able to "ascend", and become gods themselves. Are there cases of mortals becoming demons? What is the place of demons in the Forgotten Realms universe? I have only read lore about gods, but not anything yet about demons. Are they "lower" in the importance hierarchy of this world?
This got me thinking, I have read all this lore about strong mortals who were able to "ascend", and become gods themselves. Are there cases of mortals becoming demons? What is the place of demons in the Forgotten Realms universe? I have only read lore about gods, but not anything yet about demons. Are they "lower" in the importance hierarchy of this world?
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I think it goes like this. Full blooded demon/devil/fiend ->Cambion(male)Succubus(female)those two are techinally half blooded->Triefling. The whole underworld bloodline is confusing because technically their not deities but just evil powerful creatures. But at the same time a really powerful demonic creature can create their own blackguards just like deities do with paladins so it's weird.
@Alexisisinneed You have your fiend blooded races all wrong there.
First a succubus is a true demon, not a half-breed. They are always female, their male counterpart are called Incubus.
Second it's called a tiefling, not triefling. Tieflings are mortals who have fiendish blood, but are not directly decended from a fiend, because that would make them a half-fiend.
Third, on the subject of half-fiends, these are mortals with a fiend as one parent and a mortal as the other. There are lots of names to describe the different types of half-fiends. A female half-fiend with a succubus mother is known as an Alu-Fiend for example (You can face Alu-Fiends in the Labyrinth Level of The Watcher's Keep btw).
On the subject of Cambions, it's hard to nail down exactly what they are since they keep changing the terms, and different campaign worlds have different definitions of what makes a Cambion. In the current version of the D&D rule set Cambions are half-fiends with a devil as a parent, they can be male or female, both Isair and Madae from Icewind Dale 2 are described as Cambions for example, their father was the devil Belhifet from Icewind Dale 1. However in previous editions of the game Cambions were always male and were born of demon fathers instead, their female counterpart was the Alu-Fiend, the demigod Iuz from Greyhawk is described as a cambion, and he has a demon lord for a father.
Any creature can ascend to godhood (As a lesser deity or even more, take Cyric), even animals (Okku the Bear god for example) or Fiends (Asmodeus is considered a greater deity). The Overgod Ao is the one that decides who ascend to godhood.
As for your original question, well, technically, in FR lore, Devils are just a group of species much like primates for example. If you are not born of these species you cannot truly become one.
The exception is the Erinyes, they are technically a fallen angel and you cannot be promoted into that form.
Sources: "Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells" and "The Book of Vile Darkness".
They are creatures made of pure Chaos and Evil. They exist for the sake of it. And they destroy for the sake of it.
It is said that in the beginning there was only Chaos. Then Law was created (either by Ao or whatever) to oppose that Chaos.
The Abyss is in a way a sentient cosmic force that spawns creatures of pure destructive chaos to spread more chaos.
The first devils (Archdevils/Archdukes) were fallen angels. They were corrupted when fighting demons and turned evil, so Asmodeus made a pact with the Lawful Good gods to give them their own plane to do their business.
That's according to the Fiendish Codex II.
You could make a strong pact or deal with powerful devils that when you die, your soul would be turned into a Devil. Even a Demon perhaps.
Of course it's not that easy and demons could very well turn you into a Dretch (lowest Demon) because "it's fun" and then eat you or squash you. A pact means nothing to them.
And the Devils might very well twist the deal to make you a Lemure.
"Yeah, you see you didn't read the fine print too well, it gives us full authority to demote you as we wish but we will also destroy your memories after turning you into a Lemure. Enjoy your short eternity."
His Chaotic Evil mortal soul fell into the Abyss. There, the soul became a Larva. He survived then long enough to evolve into the lowest of the low: a Mane. Then the next "evolution" were a Bar-Lgura. Further mutation included Chasme and Vrock, respectively. Afterwards he would evolve into a Hezrou and finally take the shape of a Balor. Eventually Orcus became an Abyss Lord and even a deity under the name of Tenebrous. Though he was killed at some point, lost his godhood and became the undead gentleman we all know and love.
Long story short: souls of deceased are able to evolve into all kinds of fiends... if they survive long enough, that is. The same process also holds true for slaadi, celestials and other outsiders.
Also interesting of note is that both Baatezu (devils) and Tanar'ri (demons) were created untold aeons ago by the Yugoloth in order to start the eternal Blood War.
Edit: Fixed links. How embarrassing, my grandmother would scold me for that.
Even one of the links says this: "The baatezu and tanar’ri use yugoloths in the Blood War only because each fears the other might gain an advantage by using them."
Is it Planescape ADnD lore? Because, with a quick glance, I didn't see that in any of the links you provided.
Because the 3.5E Fiendish Codex I + II lore tell a different story.
"In the beginning—and even before—chaos was all that existed. Out of it came demons—the living manifestations of chaos. Time had not yet been invented, so the demons fought each other continuously in a vortex of disorder over an immeasurable period.
A state of raw chaos was intolerable to the universe, so a force arose to combat it—the power of law. From this principle of abstract order, a number of beings coalesced to combat the demons."
- Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, p. 4
Demons are the most ancient beings in the multiverse, they existed before the gods arrived to create order from chaos and create material worlds and mortals to inhabit them. The Tanar'ri demons most are familiar with is only a relatively recent form of demon that only came into existence when (chaotic evil) mortal souls were pulled into the Abyss. For example the first Tanari'ri demon that was spawned was Demogorgon, and legions more were created since.
The original demons responsible for the creation of the Tanar'ri are the Obyriths, most likely the most ancient creatures in existence. These creatures are pure chaos and evil on a level most can't fathom. It is said that their form is so alien that just looking at one can drive you insane. They rarely appear in literature these days because the Tanar'ri have pretty much driven them into the deepest depths of the Abyss, but you may be familiar with some Obyrith demon lords like the Queen of Chaos (very big name in Greyhawk lore), Dagon, Pazuzu and Obox-Ob (an Obyrith lord that originally held the title "prince of demons").
Yugoloths are indeed used as mercenaries in the Blood War, but they have no connection with the creation of demons and devils.
Sources: Fiendish Codex I & II, and The Book of Vile Darkness
As far as the planar cosmology of 3rd edition, it is whole cloth based on the previous edition's cosmology. I mean the great wheel and everything in 3rd edition was just updated directly from Planescape. And all the lore on demons in 3rd edition was penned by the well known James Jacobs (a prolific writer now working for Paizo Publishing), I doubt there is a person on the earth who knows more about D&D's fiends than him. He has after all been an active contributor since the early 1980's.
But it's also true that dozen of conspiracy theories are written down inside Faces of Evil about the Yugoloth and their schemes. So I may not be correct about them having a hand in their neighbours creation after all. In either case, they are greatly informative books which I highly recommend every Planewalker to read at least once.
Looking at the Forgotten Realms wiki I did see mention of the theory that Baernaloths were behind the creation of both the Obyriths and Baatezu, however the page doesn't cite any sources and directly conflicts with other sources. So it's likely just a fan theory.
I did some checking in the old 2nd edition books, and I found that the Yugoloths did not create demons. They did however (or at least their Baernaloth leaders did) create demodands, at least they are rumored to have created them. Demodands have some similarities to demons, but aren't demons. They can be either neutral evil or chaotic evil and inhabit the prison plane of Carceri. I assume this is why someone thinks they created the demons and devils.
Source: 2nd edition Fiend Folio
Surely there've been demons/devils who grew tired of all the pointless destruction/scheming. Angelic beings/mortals have been demon lords/archdevils/gods/vestiges but how many examples do we know of the opposite?
Mortal don't ascend into demons/devils. They fall into it.
At start there is three ways to become part of a fiend kind:
1- The mortal have to make a pact selling your soul to a devil. When the mortal dies, the devil comes to the God of Death palace and reclaim the soul of the mortal instead of any deity that cloud have sought for it.
2- The mortal have encountered during his life a demon using soul-sucking powers. Succubus/Inccubus are the best known for that, enticing mortals against sexual favor during which they drain their energy until the link between their body and soul is weak enough to rip it apart and bring it to the abyss
3- The mortal had a faithless life, resulting in no god reclaiming his soul at his death. As a result, the God of Death jails the soul in the Wall of Damned to serve as a fence around his palace. Even if a forbidden act, some demons sometimes makes raids on the Wall to steal some souls from it.
Mortal souls fallen in the hands of fiend are turned into larvaes. A low, and horrific existence as a brainless, difform, slaves used in the great eternal war between the Demon and Devils.
Larvaes are immortal and doomed to an eternity of suffering in the end of their masters they can't disobey to being completly deprivated of willpower. They serve as meat in the great battles of the eternal war, and toys for the archfiends (for exemple, some larvae can be fused alive into a living, screaming chair for use in the new lair of a demon...), suffering horrible deaths and coming back to life again and again to serve again.
Due to their usefulness they serve as a money for fiends, which is the main reason why devils and demons try to get ever more mortal souls.
During their long long existence as a larvae, every kindness, goodness, charity or anything positive is washed out from the soul. The continuous pain and atrocity of this existence destroy anything that is not dispear and hatred.
For most souls, the identity and memories are lost if they stay to long at this stade.
It happens however than a particular larvae catch the attention of a superior fiend that will allow it to "Evolve" into a better fiend. It will still suffer and be abused, but at least, it will recover a bit of intelligence and sense of self.
Point is: the newly "mane" knows most often only thing: he hates his masters, he hates everything, and he seeks only one thing: power to free himself from their grasp.
From this point the fiend will live a life of pure lust for power, to raise in ranks and become the one who make other suffer, and not the one who suffers.
Betraying, conspirating, stealing, murdering, everything he can do without being caught by this superiors (every fiend except the larvaes) and adversary (the other manes) he will attempt to slowly accumulate power until he can evolve again to a stronger form.
Only the most evil and cunning fiends can reach high ranks of devils and demons. You cannot become a great demon if you're not ready to -everything- for power. A fiend does not care about anything else. Power is everything. So souls, are everything. Sometimes, they relish into making the other suffer, as a vengeance for everything they suffered, and still suffer into the end of their betters again, to appease their unlimited hatred.
But power then hatred drives fiends. Nothing else. And power and hatred is what make them evolves. This way, they also create ever more friends, but stealing souls and turning them into more larvaes.
However, most of larvae will never reach a better form. That's one of a million, one of a billion. Out of them, there is only an handful cases where the soul didn't stay a larvae long enough to loose every memory and part of its previous identity. Orcus being the most known.
The process for a mortal to become a demon/devil is the most horrific thing that can be imagined. In fact, no mortal can even imagine it. Only a fiend knows what it is.
This has been somewhat changed when the Far Realms where added to the lore.
In far end the "Outer Realms", a place of the multiverse where the planes becomes so thin that the simple fact to take a step can sometimes make you get through several of them, lies the "Far Realms", a kingdom of pure Madness and Chaos in which a simple glimpse would turn the sanity of any mortal being of the prime plane into pulp.
This is a place who reside the "Elder Evils", a race that the Aboleths describe as "a class of powerful alien entities who predate the gods"
Knowing how alien the Aboleths are themselves, it means a lot.
While it has been left (voluntary) unclear in the lore, the main interpretation is that Ao, the Overgod, exiled after a battle that no one but He remembers those beings into the Outer Plane after they started to create the Tana'ri, at least for those of them who refused to return and fade into the primordial chaos.
What is granted is that those "Elder Evils" are described not as a threat to mortals, but litteraly to the cosmology itself: their coming into any world mean the total destruction of this world, the living creatures being part of it meaning nothing into this equation, the planes they reach being "simply" ripped into shreds and turned into more Chaos and Madness.
Besides the Aboleth and some Illithids, the only beings found in the prime plane who know about the Elder Evils are the Star-pact Warlocks, who gain powers from those entities after an accidental contact with them through too much study of the stars (as described into the D&D4 book on Warlocks)... hopefuly for them, the contact is very very VERY thin, as they are sealed and kept afar from.... well... every power that currently have some sense of reason, including the demons themselves, who find them "too chaotic".
Yup, that's "too chaotic" for beings of pure chaos, sir.... it means a lot, too.
Neverless, how thin it could be, most Star-Pact Warlocks struggle everyday to maintain their sanity. And most fail at keeping an inch of it. The best of them, a handful, keep enough reason to merely seem "unstable" to other mortals.
You don't get any contact, or any sorts, with the Elder Evils without severe wounds into your very mind.
Elder Evils only knows why they fathom warlock powers to some mortal who caught their presence. And why they push them to perform absurd acts in return. Many could seem without evil consequences... but all other powers are wary about anything such a warlock do, as it could turn to be a scheme for an Elder Evils to find a path to enter the Prime Plane...
Would it happen, nothing would survive it. Unless Ao himself... does something... if He can...
... but on the other side, the Elder Evils are so chaotic that those acts could not even have a reason to start with.
Except those abominations and the star-pact warlocks, mortals don't that Elder Evils exists, even those, rare, who heard about the existence of the Far Relms. Elder Evils is a topic for over-powers, not mortals. This very topic is ffaaar beyond their field of influence.
The Ancient Elves race, who has unrivaled magic knowledge long lost since, once pierced the veil to the Far Realm by creating a portal named the "Vast Gate": the only thing that is known as a result is that their civilization "imploded into bloody terror" from the knowledge they harvested from it.
TL;DR: Demons have been created by Chtulu-like beings that you'll never see appear in any RPG based on the Forgotten Realms.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Elder_evil
Seems kinda outdated, and some informations doesn't seems accurate, also, but I lack the references to check that.