Quest based kits
kamuizin
Member Posts: 3,704
Based on the delay of BG EE release, i will introduce this idea that i had a long time ago, never shared it before so here we go:
Many people complain against the absent of use for the custom classes (paladin, ranger, druid...), many people agreed that maybe BG could keep the kits single and only introduce kits in BG2 (what would be a regressive behavior and a unproductive one). But the fact yet is here, the kits make the single class useless.
Another fact is that main char was locked on candlekeep his entire life and he's to young and inexperienced to truly know a specialization.
So i make now the following suggestion: Make the kits quest related required.
What that mean? This suggestion means that in character creation, you only choose the vanilla classes. You will start the game as a paladin, monk, sorcerer, wizard, cleric, ranger... and that follows on.
But inside the game, pursuing specific quests you can specialize in one of the existent kits. The quests can be the pursue of a tutor, the need of a specific book, an specific event that change the main char, the use of an artifact, an specific NPC interaction that create the possibility... among many other possibilites that i left for the devs to work around.
This content was used in Dragon Age: Origins. Even if there the content was developed in a very bad way, i always saw the potential on this feature. In a huge non-linear (at least not to much) adventure as Baldur's Gate, that concept could be great, making a lot of new quests or adding a kit class as a reward in some old quests
Anyone feel free to share ideas as how this can be done, but here now, to make the question i will try to keep it simple, so based that Team BG already stated that BG2 kits WILL be used in BG:
Do you support the creation of quest requeriment kits?
Ps: the consequence of the sucess of this pool can be a vanilla class limitation on each character creation, as only during the game will the kits be acessible.
Many people complain against the absent of use for the custom classes (paladin, ranger, druid...), many people agreed that maybe BG could keep the kits single and only introduce kits in BG2 (what would be a regressive behavior and a unproductive one). But the fact yet is here, the kits make the single class useless.
Another fact is that main char was locked on candlekeep his entire life and he's to young and inexperienced to truly know a specialization.
So i make now the following suggestion: Make the kits quest related required.
What that mean? This suggestion means that in character creation, you only choose the vanilla classes. You will start the game as a paladin, monk, sorcerer, wizard, cleric, ranger... and that follows on.
But inside the game, pursuing specific quests you can specialize in one of the existent kits. The quests can be the pursue of a tutor, the need of a specific book, an specific event that change the main char, the use of an artifact, an specific NPC interaction that create the possibility... among many other possibilites that i left for the devs to work around.
This content was used in Dragon Age: Origins. Even if there the content was developed in a very bad way, i always saw the potential on this feature. In a huge non-linear (at least not to much) adventure as Baldur's Gate, that concept could be great, making a lot of new quests or adding a kit class as a reward in some old quests
Anyone feel free to share ideas as how this can be done, but here now, to make the question i will try to keep it simple, so based that Team BG already stated that BG2 kits WILL be used in BG:
Do you support the creation of quest requeriment kits?
Ps: the consequence of the sucess of this pool can be a vanilla class limitation on each character creation, as only during the game will the kits be acessible.
- Quest based kits49 votes
- Yes, i support the raw idea and we can develop it in future threads or even in this very pool.46.94%
- No, i prefer to keep it simple. Choose the kit during character creation.53.06%
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Comments
I like the idea of quests that give you abilities, though, and I would support the discussion to come up with quest ideas that give your protagonist some special abilities. The current dream-related spells are kind of nonplussing, mainly because they don't actually have anything to do with your actions (the spells are chosen based on reputation, and it all occurs in a dream sequence).
What i mean is:
If you're a level 5 fighter and found the requeriments, whatever they are, to become a kensay, you become a level 5 kensai, not a level 5 fighter and 1 kensai. I don't intent to separate the kits from the vanila class but to infuse the kit on the actual vanila class if the player choose so and meet the requeriments for it.
And I still belive (the technical issues left aside, that more of the original fighter/thief/mage/cleric kits should be included in bg:ee - atm with the bg2 ones, we have like 20% of the official ad&d kits, and even less if we look at those especially designed for the forgottem realms setting.
IF I was to support this and I am, as I voted yes, it would revolve around further enhancing the kit during the travels - this was infact part of some kit classes if you take a look at the classes handbook - those pen and paper guys out there.
a typical lineup would be
Kit changes:
level 5 - this and this
level 10 - more of that
level 15 - master of the universe.
Now I know that this already works for some bg 2 kits (albeit very little)
My suggestion would be:
enhance certain abilities within the kit that by the origianal classes handbooks where granted on later levels, by introdicuing the quest/trainer system you mentioned.
This would need to be revised with much precision, as the excact quests and/or trainers need to reflect the very skill/feat/ability that you would get.
The idea makes sense though, also from a ad&d 2nd perspective - ol skool pen and paper, and its well within the DM guidelines passed down so long ago - dam I'm getting old.
no more rambling from me - I guess in short my point is - STAY true to the ruleset and the world setting if you go down this road
All in all, 2nd edition PnP states that wizard specializations have to be declared upon character creation, as specialists wizards have to apprentice with a wizard of the same specialty school before becoming a full fledged level one wizard.
Did you intend for those who are dual classing, to be able to get a kit for each class that they are actually dual classing? Because that means that once they dual class from gained specialization, can't they just do the quest for the next class and therefore have both kits?
What about multi classers? could they possibly do both quests at the same time, thereby getting specialized for each multiclass, or would they only be able to choose one?
Would Monks and Sorcerers gain specializations?
Would NPCs have to undergo the same treatment, or do they start in their designated kits, as if they had already undergone their specific training in the past, and the only one who has to go through this training is the PC?
Overall I think this IS a great idea as long as things could be balanced out a bit... and not only that, the roleplayability would be awesome, AND; you have more ability to change your mind DURING play, as opposed to having to reroll...
Edit: Also, would the bonuses that you get for certain levels be retro active? or would you be punished for not specializing sooner?
I'm pretty sure it isn't ad&d 2nd edition, as they're quite clear on multiclassing and kits, aka not happening.
About your points, you made them as questions and the ones i like are:
- Multi/dual classes being able to get a kit for each class.
Since kits became a quest with this suggestion and you have to work to get them, have 2 kits now is merit not overpower. But if anyone doesn't agree be free to position yourself inside the idea and defend a class only change.
In my view both classes could be changed, but lock the 2° class if you get a kit for the other or lost the previous kit if you get a 2° kit are possibilities. Be active on the class to get a git could be a pre-requisite also. Well the possibilities are many.
- About monks and sorceres with kits.
Well i truly hope the devs. to add kits to monk and sorceres, the monks (based in Rasaad) probally gonna get classes as at least 2 of the monastic orders are going to be used now in BG, about sorcerer i don't know. But this is more based in the devs. if they want to make kit for those classes than anything else.
- About the possibilities of NPCs, i truly didn't think on them when i create this idea, taking the fact that in BG no NPC has a kit, make a quest for them to get a kit could be a very nice way to give old NPCs kits without the problem of original content (they're not being changed this way, they're only interacting with the new content) but this can clash with some copyright clauses maybe.
About the bonus, i believe they should have "ex tunc" effect, means that you get the kit and the bonus from this kit should be retroactive applied to your character, not only because it's probaly a little easy to code this way, as you can make a generic change string (anyone that become the X kit will get the X bonus instead of evaluate the level when the kit is gained) but if made otherwise this would be a harm to people that want the kit from the start and would make people reject the idea and keep the kits in the character creation.
@LadyRhian, from my perspective to preserve P&P this idea should be done, as there the idea of a 16 years kensai or cleric of Talos for example that has few or no contact with the exterior world is a pretty huge coherence problem.
@igdogchris, in this idea, you're free to level up in the raw class (thief, mage, fighter, ranger...), this is AD&D, here the limit is based on XP cap, not levels, the difference here is when you meet the requeriments and choose to change in an specific kit (sub-class) your current class (be it fighter, thief, ranger, bard...) will be turned in the kit class keeping the current level.
Ex: a Fighter level 6 finsh the kensai quest and now can turn on it, if done, you simply change the class from fighter to kensai, your XP points aren't be touched in any way.
@kamuizin
I'll take you up on the subject about several kits for multi-class/dual class though.
I posted this in another thread so maybe you've already read it.
Warrior Kits and Multi-Class Characters
These Warrior Kits are designed to add depth to a warrior-class character. But if
the character is already multi-class (for example, an elf fighter-mage), he doesn't need
any more depth. Therefore, only single-class warriors can take one of the Warrior Kits
described above.
However, with your DM's permission, there's no reason why a multi-class warrior
can't use his weapon and nonweapon proficiency choices to simulate one of the Kits .
. . and, again with DM permission, the characters possessing that Warrior Kit can
consider him "one of their own" within the context of the campaign.
For example, let us say that your campaign features an elvish Amazon tribe and
you want to play an elf fighter/thief who belongs to that Amazon tribe.
Build her this way: Have her take Spear and Long Bow Weapon Proficiencies. For
her Nonweapon Proficiencies, have her take Riding (Land-Based) and Animal
Training (she doesn't get either of these for free, like the "real" Amazon, but she can
still choose them). For her Equipment, limit her to the equipment choices of the
Amazon.
If you do all this, and have your DM's permission, within the context of the
campaign, your character will be considered an Amazon. That is, she comes from the
Amazon tribe and the other Amazons consider her to be a shield-sister and one of
their own. You know, and the DM knows, that she doesn't have all the special benefits
of the Amazon Warrior Kit. And the DM is within his rights to assign the character
the special hindrances of the Amazon—after all, you've chosen for her to be identified
with a race of people with those hindrances. But to all outward eyes, she is
indistinguishable from any other elvish Amazon.
________
Warrior Kits and Dual-Class Characters
The same is not true of dual-class characters.
If a character starts off as a warrior, he may take any of the Warrior Kits above. If,
later, he decides to change classes according to the normal Dual-Class Benefits and
Restrictions rules, he doesn't lose any of the benefits or hindrances of the Kit he
chose; he is still that sort of fighter. If that second character class also has a range of
Kits available to it, he may not choose a new, additional Kit.
If a character starts off as some other character class, does not take on a Kit
appropriate to that class, and then later switches to one of the warrior classes, he can
choose a Warrior Kit at that time . . . though the DM may insist that certain campaign
events be accomplished in order to allow him to do this.
For instance, let's say that a human mage decides, later in life, to become a
Fighter, and he wants to be a Gladiator. Well, there's nothing wrong with that. But the
DM should insist that the next several adventures deal with that transformation. The
character must be hired by (or, alternatively, captured and enslaved by) an arena or
fighting-stable owner, trained, and pitted against other Gladiators. The other
characters in the campaign could also be entering the gladiatorial arena, or the DM
could contrive things so that the current adventure involves gladiatorial elements and
still get all the PCs involved.
To better simulate the wait involved for the character to learn his new trade, the
DM is within his rights to insist that the character not receive his Warrior Kit until
he's reached second experience level in his new class.
This is taken from the warriors handbook ad&d 2nd, I've double checked with druids,clerics and mages also. It's the same stance towards this subject.
I kind of agree, and if I was to put the words from the ruleset to BG, then a several kitted multi-class would mean a uniqe character, with a uniqe background (i.e a npc you meet - under certain conditions, with a background to match.
Many suggestions here regarding additions to the ad&d 2nd ruleset, neglects the reality factor, that in my opinion makes the fantasy setting substansial.
If I wanted customized abilities, and gems tossed all over my euipment, I would play WoW or D3.
That won't change the fact that I strongly belive that if the core rules are followed, earning your kits/abilities though quests and trainers in the game world, totally coherence with the ad&d take.