Rebalance and Improved challenge Mods: Opinions
Dukinson
Member Posts: 46
I'm looking for mod recommendations for my next play through. What I'm looking for is improved balance and challenge over NM mode. My last campaign, even on NM, was rather tame. I tend to like a clean game and don't want to get too nuts with fluff and romance stuff.
The mods I seem to hear a lot about and am researching are:
- Ascension
- SCS
- Item Revisions
- Spell Revisions
- BG2 tweaks (a must but I'll put it down)
Classically I've always played with the gibberlings tweak mod and now with BG2 EE. My problem with BG2ee is they keep the status quo and does very little to rebalance item powers and nothing on item placements. The vast majority of items are just backround noise rather than useful stepping stones. Fights like Melissan are so easy it's sad. Strangely enough, bg2EE's stab at any rebalancing was with slings and throwing daggers, making them absurdly powerful. The daggers moreso. If there was a 2d4+2 sword that gave an extra attack, it would be one of the most powerful items in the game. Now imagine you can throw it. Oh wait, they did that and you can get it almost in the beginning of the game, even trivializing all other throwing weapons aside from it's big brother the firetooth. There are dual wield setups that can beat it's raw dmg output but aren't nearly as safe.
Don't get me wrong, bg2EE is amazing. Fixing so many bugs and making the game cleaner is spectacular. I can't picture playing without it now. Normally I would even praise them for not tainting the original balance of the game terribly but BG2 needs it. There are simply too many ridiculously mighty items available early game and even some powerful items placed so late they are meaningless, like the runehammer. Are there 5 or so undead left to hit with it by then? The designers of the original game were masters of story and envirnment.. but clearly lacked objective balancing abilities.
I digress, let me get off my soapbox. I would like to hear which mods you'd recommend and what you feel those mod(s) bring to the table.
The mods I seem to hear a lot about and am researching are:
- Ascension
- SCS
- Item Revisions
- Spell Revisions
- BG2 tweaks (a must but I'll put it down)
Classically I've always played with the gibberlings tweak mod and now with BG2 EE. My problem with BG2ee is they keep the status quo and does very little to rebalance item powers and nothing on item placements. The vast majority of items are just backround noise rather than useful stepping stones. Fights like Melissan are so easy it's sad. Strangely enough, bg2EE's stab at any rebalancing was with slings and throwing daggers, making them absurdly powerful. The daggers moreso. If there was a 2d4+2 sword that gave an extra attack, it would be one of the most powerful items in the game. Now imagine you can throw it. Oh wait, they did that and you can get it almost in the beginning of the game, even trivializing all other throwing weapons aside from it's big brother the firetooth. There are dual wield setups that can beat it's raw dmg output but aren't nearly as safe.
Don't get me wrong, bg2EE is amazing. Fixing so many bugs and making the game cleaner is spectacular. I can't picture playing without it now. Normally I would even praise them for not tainting the original balance of the game terribly but BG2 needs it. There are simply too many ridiculously mighty items available early game and even some powerful items placed so late they are meaningless, like the runehammer. Are there 5 or so undead left to hit with it by then? The designers of the original game were masters of story and envirnment.. but clearly lacked objective balancing abilities.
I digress, let me get off my soapbox. I would like to hear which mods you'd recommend and what you feel those mod(s) bring to the table.
Post edited by Dukinson on
1
Comments
Revisions mods address your issue with unbalanced items and spells, but I don't think IR and SR makes the game much harder for that you have to rely on SCS, which is a must have mod imo.
To a lesser extent my mods limit BG's power creep rebalancing OP items/spells, and preventing many cheesy stuff and/or exploits but at the same time they turn a huge amount of previously weak items/spells into appealing ones, giving you more tools.
Overall, some aspects of IR/SR might make the game slightly harder yes (e.g. IR's Store Revision make you think twice before spending your money within BG2) but rather than "harder" I'd say they make it more "balanced". Without SCS the game will still be extremely easy.
I'll just comment on your own examples:
- Item Revisions throwing daggers and slings do not allow STR bonuses. The former in particular is hugely OP when paired with their base 2 attacks per round.
- IR's Boomerang Dagger no longer does 2d4 dmg but 1d4 as all daggers should. In exchange it got a Crippling effect which can reduce target's movement speed.
- Runehammer is one of the few items I'm still not satisfied with even within IRv4, but I changed it from a copy/paste of the Mace of Disruption (by the time you get it there's no undead to fight) into a weapon specialized to fight extraplanar beings and summons (*)
- Kit Revisions prevents Kensai dmg bonuses from being used on throwing weapons. Similarly, Berserker's Rage bonuses aren't applied to throwing weapons.
(*) check IR's Item Index here for more details: http://gibberlings3.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=15700
You weakened the kensai damage bonus for sure. Slower progression, +5 cap, and no bonus to throwing weapons. I suppose they had it coming eh? It is the quintessential fighter kit overshading the others.
I love how you weakened (?) the ridiculous WW ability. That ability really ruins the late game. My party is just a bunch of boring tasmanian devils at that point. I'll have to look over this mod some more and critique it.
It looks like the thieves are missing descriptions on their snares atm. Also, did assassin lose their +1 to dmg/hit in exchange for an earlier backstab multiplier?
KENSAI: thac0/dmg progression is a bit nerfed yes, but in exchange the kensai can now use bracers (not gauntlets) and he has a small pool of Ki abilities. Vanilla's Kensai is (in)famous for giving its best when dualed to mage or thief because those classes nullified its weaknesses while I'm trying to make it shine as a single class (e.g. vanilla's kensage got way better AC wearing powerful robes, now the base class can get good AC using bracers to incentivate staying single class).
WHIRLWIND ATTACK: it's not a real nerf (it lasts 2 rounds instead of 1) but rather a rebalance. With vanilla's WWA the base apr is irrelevant, thus a specialized paladin with a greatsword would actually become better than a dual wielder true fighter with grandmastery when using this HLA. KR's version makes the base apr matter, and tries to preserve the differences between classes, weapon types, and weapon styles.
THIEVES: I'll update it asap. The next build will almost surely include a first draft of all rogue kits.
ASSASSIN: yes, the assassin gets +1 to backstab multiplier at 1st lvl to differentiate it from other thieves (why should he wait 17th lvl to become a better backstabber?) and he also get a hide bonus to partially make up for the reduced skill points per lvl, but the +1 dmg/hit might be replaced with the ability to specialize into darts, daggers and short swords.
EE compatibility: IR and SR are fully compatible with EE now, but get the V4 "betas" from G3 forums rather than the old V3. KR is compatible too but unlike the other two mods it's a real beta.
ETAs: a new KR build was ready a few days ago but I delayed it a bit to finally include thieves. I'm the worst modder ever when it comes to etas but sometime during this week I'll release it. Please do it. I feed on feedback.
Consider also Weimer's Tactics mod, which improves many of the earlier encounters in the SoA portion. Musiginy is currently making it EE compatible (see here), and while it's still called an alpha release, many of its components already work perfectly well and are stable. See the bundled README for details. Excellent choice.
Install all components from the "Improved AI" group for highest challenge, but if you want only a moderate challenge increase then:
- skip Smarter Beholders and Smarter Mindflayers
- For Smarter Mages, select the option for not allowing enemy mages to pre-cast spells.
And if you install the Potions for NPCs component, make sure to select that all or most of their potions should break when they die, otherwise this will make the game easier rather than harder.From the "Tactical Challenges" group, install everything that sounds good to you, except ones that overlap with components you've already installed from Ascension (see the SCS readme for compatibility info) or from Tactics (see the Tactics README for mroe up-to-date compatibility info).
The components from the "Spell Tweaks"/"Item Tweaks" aren't really needed if you already use SR/IR. From the "Gameplay Tweaks" group, use whatever sounds good. Excellent choice - but make sure you use the v4 version (which is technically still in beta I think).
For the most part they don't make the game harder (unless of course you relied on cheese tactics/exploits which no longer work with them), but they just make lots of things more streamlined, sane, and fair/balanced.
And I also love how thorough and consistent the spell descriptions become with this. In the original game they're kind of a mess and missing lots of important information (like the abilities/stats of summoned creatures). Once you've played with SR you won't want to go back for this reason alone.
@Tredvolt I made an online Item Index: http://gibberlings3.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=15700
Few things might not be up to date because of the beta, but 90% of the items should be as described there. For the readmes, use the ones packaged on the builds below.
Don't use the old V3, get V4 builds from the same forums...
IRv4 http://gibberlings3.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=26482
SRv4 http://gibberlings3.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=26517 Minor features? It's a RoP+2 AND a Ring of Regeneration at the same time, with immunity to disease and poison as well. Not to mention it doesn't suffer the same limitation of Protection items.
I changed its x/day abilities yes, but for two reasons:
- make them fit the necromantic "theme"
- make it more unique (Haste and Invisibility are almost everywhere)
The short lasting 3xday Improved Haste has been replaced by 3xday Vampiric Touch; 1xday Invisibility by Finger of Death.
I was thinking to make it even more distinct to RoP+2 by limiting the save bonus to death/poison, maybe increasing it to +3/+4, and/or giving it something else in exchange.
When you look at an IR's item keep in mind that for me variety and uniqueness are highly valued, I hate "copy/paste" items or items which overlaps with similar equipment. Often times small changes that might seem "random" have been done to try making the item more unique, at least within their item type/category. I do thought to replace Spell Trap but it's the signature feature of this staff thus I never managed to convince myself. RM aside the staff is clearly weaker than it was because that 20% magic resistance bonus replaces ProEvil + 2AC + immunity to charm, AND I removed the most broken thing which was that infinite invisibility. So, getting STR from 9 to 18 is fine but getting +2 STR is "cheap"?
The STR bonus is the only special feature of Mauler's Arm thus if a character like Minsc uses it to get STR 20 he's also giving up on using other weapons with flaming, stunning, etc abilities or while equipped immunities. Why do you call it "cheap"?
Anyway, the whole "set stats vs inc stats" is indeed a long discussion. To make it short: I prefer the base stats of a character to really matter. Allowing Viconia to wear full plate and becoming stronger than Valygar only because she equip a magical mace is silly for me.
I personally find removing the invis took away the most exploitable feature of this item (although perhaps available too early). The invis, +2 saves, and auto-dispel w/o save seem much more powerful than what it is now.
Firstly, I have no idea why boomerang does the damage of a flying bastard sword. Second, I noticed you did weaken firetooth to 1d4 with 1d4fire instead of 1d2 fire. This weapon should have been weakened and it seems Boomerang should be weakened as well. You say in the index "...though it may be necessary to add something more to this weapon considering how late you can acquire it." Did you change it's placement? Boomerang was always quite easy to get. At any rate, daggers you throw shouldn't do the damage of a bastard sword with an extra attack unless perhaps it's some late game power item. Ofcourse even with this damage, without a modifier to it's damage, it is still quite weak.
What if throwing weapons only got 1/2 strength bonus, or received dex bonus for damage? Perhaps supplement with a shorter range. No man can throw a weapon as far as a bow can shoot.
*Edit* I see you've already decreased throwing range. Good thinking.
-Ideas I really like (usually for balance reasons)
Example: Potions of Master Thievery no longer stack.
-Ideas that I don't like but I can't find a compelling reason why they shouldn't change other than (if its not broke don't fix it).
-Ideas that I think are bad for reasons I can articulate a good argument for.
-Ideas I'm not familiar enough with to speak about confidently (in how it affects the game)
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Ultimately this is going to be a lot of subjectivity and I absolutely encourage you to ignore anything I say if you want to - but I will 100% review and give feedback on all these changes.
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Thanks for even taking the time to read my responses - it is fun to be able to give feedback like this! I will try to write something up tomorrow.
They are still good though, because they have 2 apr and very fast weapon speed. The higher apr is great for example to get the most out of Assassin's Poison Weapon, and the fast speed factor lets you reposition and strike fast again (aka kiting).
Last but not least, unless you are a "power player" it's very unlikely for rogues and spellcasters to have 18+ STR, thus the lack of STR bonus on daggers doesn't really affect much the dmg output unless you are trying to build a very odd character who mains tiny daggers despite his giant strength. - it's a typo on the online index, probably a remnant of old versions. It's 1d4 since v3.
- I didn't, but you need a Limited Wish scroll to get it, is it that easy to get? I cannot code "1/2 STR bonus". The global rebalance of ranged weapons would require a wall of text to be explained but I'll try to be short.
Firstly, weapon speed factor plays a role within IR because enchantment lvl doesn't lower it anymore. This is more crucial for melee fights (e.g. trying to hit a kiting character with a very slow greatsword is difficult now), but might play a small role even for ranged combat (e.g. xbow's new speed factor is ideal when you truly need to strike first to disrupt a spell for example).
SHORT BOWS: average damage, average speed factor, 3/2 apr. Probably the most balanced pick.
LONG BOWS: good damage, slow speed factor, 3/2 apr. Less suited for kiting because of the increased speed factor, but classes with high apr can negate that small weakness.
XBOWS: great damage, excellent speed factor, accurate (they get a +1 bonus to hit), but the new reload mechanic caps its apr (light xbows to 4 apr, heavy to 3). It's the best pick for classes not affected much by the reload, but skilled warriors should master bows instead.
SLINGS: average damage, slow speed factor, can be used with a shield. Offensively, slings are weaker than any of the above weapons, but shields within IR are hugely better than they were in vanilla and thus this pick is ideal for characters like spellcasters who will only rarely use the weapon itself but highly value instead the great defensive bonuses they get from using a shield.
THROWING DAGGERS: weak damage, fast speed factor, 2 apr. Great secondary weapons for characters with low apr.
THROWING AXES: average damage, average speed factor, allow STR bonus. Good secondary weapons for warriors, but they have limited range within IR. There's a few magical throwing hammers and even spears within IR, but they behave almost the same way (spears are a bit more damaging but requires two hands).
DARTS: very weak damage, fast speed factor, 3 apr. Slightly better than throwing daggers maybe, but unlike daggers they don't offer any melee utility, and daggers have more powerful magical specimen.
Regeneration is another thing I consider irrelevant. It only matters when you are playing without a healer in your party. Making it fit to certain theme isn't a bad thing per se. It is just that the replacement functionalities have much less of a good use. VT is a great spell to have in BG1 and perhaps in the early stages of BG2. But later on it just doesn't matter, and a 1x per save-or-else spell isn't that great either, imo.
Also it is a Ring worn by a Demilich, and its powers should reflect that. So, if it were to be necromantic thing, I'd consider something like HW 1x or 2x a day and PW:Kill 1x day more appropriate. That's actually a pretty nice idea. I did acknoledge the removal of the II, but I wouldn't say "RM aside", because a 30th level RM is crazy in my opinion. It is a guaranteed "debuff everyone" once per day.
Losing PfE is a non issue in my eyes, because your party cleric should normally cast a default buff after resting for everyone anyway. 20% MR, on the other hand, is really huge. I also find that somewhat strange, because you took the MR of the Gaxx Ring, because you considered its 10% to be OP.
Because the thing is cheap to buy. You can wield the thing off-hand and have a permanent THAC0 and STR damage bonus equal to a Belt you normally have to wait for arriving in Suldenessalar.
This Mace costs about a 1/5 of a Girdle of Hill Giant Strength and will put its wielder beyond it, if he hasat least 18 STR.
It is just like I said, a nerf for Viconia who cannot wear Full Plate at the cost of not being able to use a ranged weapon any longer, but an obvious buff for any Fighter type character at the start of the game.
Well, that's of course your every right to have that opinion. For me, such is just the nature of magical items.
If you equip Valygar, with said Mace, he suddenly becomes as strong as a towering Hill Giant. How is that less "silly"?
In my opinion setting a fixed STR value is the only way to make a STR enhancing items a viable option to non-fighters. By just providing stat increases you are only catering to those who are already strong from the get go.
But that is of course just my opinon. Again, I don't want to argue with you about your rebalancing decisions. It is your every right to do as you please. I just wanted to point out, that such decisions are highly subjective, and you cannot find a solution to please everyone, because different tastes and habits.
Revisions scope (IR + SR + KR) is much larger than just tweaking a few items and sometimes it's difficult to talk about a single item change without looking at the bigger picture.
RING OF GAXX: it's a ring with +2 AC, +2 to all saves, regeneration, immunity to disease and poison, plus good x/day abilities. If that doesn't look like an epic ring to you I don't know what to say.
Mind you it uses a maxed out SR's Vampiric Touch which means instant 30 magic dmg to a target while healing the wielder by 30 hp and increasing his max hp by 30! A Finger of Death with instant casting time is almost as good as a PW:Kill that you suggest, but unlike PW it fits the necromantic theme.
I didn't removed the 10% magic resistance because the mr itself was OP, the ring was OP, and the mr seemed to not fit the theme much. I also gave that to the Ring of Spell Turning and I always strive to make items of the same type not overlap.
I'm glad you like at least my intentions (e.g. replace +2 all saves with +3 or +4 to saves vs death), I'll try to think what can be done to improve its uniqueness without further nerfing it.
STAFF OF THE MAGI: did you play with SCS? Because it uses Lower Resistance if your mr is too high.
I could lower RM's caster lvl from 30 to 25, or even the wielder's lvl if necessary (albeit items should not be affected by the user lvl imo). Regarding Spell Trap I'm torn, it's the signature spell, it's hard to edit/replace it.
MAULER'S ARM: I do think going from 17 to 19 is more "believable" than going from STR <10 to STR 18, and as I said I do wanted to make base stats matter. The change obviously appeal roleplayers more than power players, and I never claimed my solutions always please everyone - that's pretty much impossible.
When I go for a change I try to please most players, not everyone, and in particular I obviously follow the feedback from IR/SR/KR players (e.g. trying to please players with a different "mentality" would make the mods go in another direction, not necessarily worse, but different for sure).
P.S @Tredvolt don't worry, take your time or just comment the items that stands out the most for you.