Druids & A Stupid Question

Blobberson

Let's get the stupid question out of the way: where can I view a list of the "400 new features?" Can you even see them all? I want to know whether they've re-balanced some of the classes from the original series. Hence the second subject of this post: druids. Druids were weak in BGII and I am hoping they've been rebalanced. Have any of the classes been rebalanced?

I actually never played BGI. I started with BGII, and when I went back to BGI I didn't enjoy it because it looked so "old." But, in BGII, druids were weak. I've beaten the game with one, but it just wasn't as powerful as many of my other characters in BGII. If I remember right, the only druid kit worth taking was the avenger, for the spells, and the rest of them were frail.

Anyone planning on playing one again?

neur0

There is a thread about Druids and the possibility of them being fixed in BG:EE, but there is no official word on this.
My guess is that, unfortunately, druids (esp. shapeshifters) will not be fixed in BG:EE, but I am thinking about starting BG:EE with one anyway.

elminster

Shapeshifters from what I've read will be fixed in BG:EE. I can't recall where I've read it, but I'm pretty sure it was an official source.

I would also contest the statement that druids suck, they have their uses. It would be nice though if they did change the experience points so that they gain levels more reasonably instead of hitting that giant wall, but I'm not sure they have the authority to do that.

Blobberson

I didn't say they sucked, I just said they were weak. As a starting point, they're not at all necessary, ever. Of course, none of the classes are strictly necessary. You can solo the game with pretty much any of them, after all. But, not having a fighter, or a thief, or a wizard, or a cleric is going to bog you down in a lot of situations, meaning that it's going to make a lot of situations noticeably harder, requiring more forethought than usual. On the other hand, no one ever got bogged down on something due to lack of druid.

Worse than that, though, they aren't really a "cleric substitute." If druids could sub in for a Cleric and fulfill that role but with different play style options, more flavor, whatever, then they'd be fine. The two classes simply aren't on the same level, though. As a result, when you take a druid, you make a conscious choice to sacrifice ability for flavor.

I ended up playing a druid all the way through, and I had fun. But, it wasn't as much fun as my other play throughs. A huge part of these types of games, to me, is building my character, acquiring new powerful abilities, etc. With a druid, you're never really that pumped about anything your character can do. It's always just "oh great, that is marginally useful." Your character isn't really the star. NPC's will be doing the heavy lifting. So, my feeling was why bother?

elminster

Fair enough I did put words in your mouth by suggesting you said they sucked. I've always found that by playing for instance as a cleric that there were other clerics available in the game and I myself wasn't really offering all that much to the party. Particularly given that like druids clerics get their highest spell level fairly quickly. I've found especially as an avenger that I am a versatile enough class to fulfil whatever role my party is lacking, even up close fighting (especially with iron skins, draw upon holy might, and improved invisibility active).

Blobberson

Word.

I am admittedly something of a power gamer, at least insofar as I like to play powerful classes. I do go down the min/max road to a point as well, though I won't take it so far as to roll a fighter with 3 intelligence or whatever.

Since I've never played BGI, I'm curious about how druids handle in the early game. They better early game than they are late game? If I remember correctly from 8 years ago, druids weren't so bad right out of Irenicus's dungeon, but they got progressively worse as the levels wore on.

elminster

They are actually arguable weaker at low levels because normal druids can't even shapeshift until level 7. I mean you can use darts combined with entangle which is nice, along with scimitars (so if you can kill Drizzt those can be great to have), but otherwise there isn't much they get in the first game that gives them a benefit over Clerics. That is, other than getting to a higher level by the end of the game. Since BG1 however doesn't have BG2's spell list there are only a few options for the level 5 spells druids can eventually get in BG1 (like animal summoning 3 or something around those lines). But, if they do include those extra spells in BG:EE it will mean Druids will at least get Iron Skins in BG1.

Dee

elminster said:

Shapeshifters from what I've read will be fixed in BG:EE. I can't recall where I've read it, but I'm pretty sure it was an official source.

If you heard this from @PhillipDaigle, there's a moderate chance that he was joking.

elminster

I have no idea where I read it.

ST4TICStriker

Druids (More so their Kits) Might actually be overpowered early game.

Totemic Druid's pet is Immune to all Normal and +1 Weapons, so in the low Magic BG:1 it kicks all kinds of ass.

The Avenger Druid gets some pretty nice spells along with some awesome shape-shifting forms.

But yeah even with BG:2's new druid spells vanilla Druid needs some love.

elminster

Yea but I doubt if they will allow the avenger to have its shape-shifting forms before level 7 in BGEE, otherwise it would be unbalanced. Unless they give some kind of shapeshifting to level one druids (which I kind of hope they do, but I doubt they will). Likewise who knows what they will be doing with the totemic druid.

sandmanCCL

I'm confused how druids are not a cleric substitute. Because they can't waltz in with heavy armor to tank? It's generally a bad idea to do that with your cleric unless you have more than one because why risk the life of someone that vital to your party's well being?

Druids are fine. They only get "weak" because of the nonsensical level gap between 14 and 15. It was an AD&D holdover from an arbitrary rule. If they made it so druids level-scaled alongside Clerics post-14, druids would remain viable.

They are better summoners than clerics. They have Entangle, which is just about the most underrated level 1 divine spell in history. They are legitimately different in terms of what they bring to the table with 5th level and beyond spells. They have better HLA's than Clerics.

They have access to more weapon options at the expense of armor, something that doesn't even matter once you hit Throne of Bhaal because you can easily hit -10 AC without even equipping armor. There are more leather armors which grant non-AC related bonuses.

Long story short, druids are fine. If you've never played a single-class druid and are complaining about them being underpowered, just use one for a change. Avenger and Totemic Druid are some of the most powerful kits in the entire game, to boot.

Blobberson

I did, and maybe my memory has been skewed by the games that have come out in between like NWN, NWN2 (& MOTB). But, I remember clerics being noticeably better than druids. Of course, that could be because Clerics are typically borderline OP, or flat out OP in a lot of games.

Will that level gap stay in place?

elminster

I doubt they will change it. Cleric's do get entangle themselves, so the only real benefit I see them having at level one is being able to use it and throw darts. Slings are too slow to be of any use for characters with terrible thaco.

Quartz

Single-class Druids are pretty kickass in Baldur's Gate 1. They can get to Level 10 - Clerics can only get to Level 8. Thus they get a whole other level of spells that Clerics don't get. Which, sure, was only two spells in vanilla BG, but they are two very beast spells. Now they'll get way more with BG:EE assuming they bring in BGII spells. Also: Scimitars.

elminster

@Quartz I assume level 10 druids would get animal summoning II (I was wrong before on this I was originally thinking it would be animal summoning III) and Cure Critical Wounds. They may also get chaotic commands but I can't recall (which frankly would come at a time when it would not be very useful to have).

Zaor

Iron Skins and more importantly Insect Plague (Unless you are a multi/dual class, of course). The nymphs at level 4 are pretty insane as well for BG1. Spell levels 1-2 are terrible, 3 is alright but not great, 4-5 is amazing for BGTutu/BGT/BGEE. If you are playing an Avenger, things get better from the start with Chromatic Orb and Web, but not by much.

It is worth noting that in BG1, without bg2 engine, entangle is much more powerful as it is party friendly. I can't comment on how important that distinction is for early levels, as I play Tutu, but that makes it arguably an amazing spell for certain play-styles. Due to the increased saves, though, it won't likely work well without support except for early. Also, Clerics do NOT get entangle. The more you know.

By the by, I prefer slings some-days just for the range, which is important for entangle or web based strategies.

Quartz

elminster said:

@Quartz I assume level 10 druids would get animal summoning II (I was wrong before on this I was originally thinking it would be animal summoning III) and Cure Critical Wounds. They may also get chaotic commands but I can't recall (which frankly would come at a time when it would not be very useful to have).

Yes, Animal Summoning II and Cure Critical Wounds. I don't think they get Chaotic Commands. But again, BG:EE will be awesome in that right ...

Zaor said:

Iron Skins and more importantly Insect Plague (Unless you are a multi/dual class, of course). The nymphs at level 4 are pretty insane as well for BG1. Spell levels 1-2 are terrible, 3 is alright but not great, 4-5 is amazing for BGTutu/BGT/BGEE. If you are playing an Avenger, things get better from the start with Chromatic Orb and Web, but not by much.

It is worth noting that in BG1, without bg2 engine, entangle is much more powerful as it is party friendly. I can't comment on how important that distinction is for early levels, as I play Tutu, but that makes it arguably an amazing spell for certain play-styles. Due to the increased saves, though, it won't likely work well without support except for early. Also, Clerics do NOT get entangle. The more you know.

By the by, I prefer slings some-days just for the range, which is important for entangle or web based strategies.

Again, Zaor mentions some of the beast spells Druids get ... thanks!

And ya, Entangle changing sure is weird ... I still don't know which I prefer

BelgarathMTH

Druids get chaotic commands in the BG2 engine, or at least Jaheira does.

In pnp, druids had unlimited shapeshifting into almost anything the player could think of, which was probably what Gygax was thinking when he made the level 14 restriction as a balance.

In the BG2 engine, entangle does work against friends. I've never found it very useful, since archers can still fire while entangled. Web, stinking cloud, and even grease are more useful.

sandmanCCL

@Belgarathmth: Keep in mind where Entangle falls in the ladder of spells. Both web and stinking cloud are level 2 spells, and for arcane casters only. (I guess avengers get web but you get my point.) It's a fairly useful spell in a lot of situations because while it isn't a complete shut down of enemies, it's also not a complete shutdown of your own guys who might get caught in it. Web has that nasty drawback of getting any of your own guys who might get caught inside killed. I know there's workarounds and everything, but you still can't walk your own guys into that web to do whatever kind of damage they can do without free action. With entangle you can still micro your guy to drop into a ranged weapon or throw spells.

Honestly, I do not find clerics THAT much better than druids. The things they get over druids are all self buffs to make them deadlier in melee + resurrection. Everything else you need a divine caster to do, a druid can do, but druids are better summoners and better at disrupting mages due to their bugs.

Clerics ARE awesome and I don't want to take away from the raw power of a cleric roided up with Holy Power and Draw Upon Holy Might. Just saying druids are not THAT much behind until the nonsensical gap between level 14 and 15. Even then, once they do hit 15 they are just as on-par as a level 21 cleric (where a cleric of equivalent XP would be) in terms of spellcasting. Not as many 1st through 5th level spells, but one more 6th and five more 7th. If their thac0, saving throws and proficiency points went up as though the 7 levels they are missing out on to any other comparative class were boosted an appropriate amount, druids would arguably be better than clerics. I mean that with all sincerity.

One of these days, I'm going to make a Berzerker/Druid. Dual-class away from fighter at 9. I think it'd go swimmingly.

I think a lot of people who cry "druids are underpowered" have never legitimately given them a shot, or simply don't like thinking outside the box when it comes to strategy.

elminster

Zaor said:

Also, Clerics do NOT get entangle.

Clerics get entangle in BG1. Maybe not in BG2, but they do in BG1 Vanilla (with or without the expansion). That, or for whatever reason Viconia has it for me just because of the grace of the gods (obviously not Lolth). Now if you want to say they won't get it in BGEE because they don't get it in BG2 (and I'm not sure if they get it in the second or not) then you may have a point.

Silence

I think Druids are okay in BG1, especially BG1tutu/BGT with no XP cap. The reason is that they achieve high-level spells quickly. Summon Fire Elemental is simply amazing when you get it (though it's decidedly inferior to Aeriel Servant). Ironskins is also lovely. They can use edged weapons, like sassy scimitars and daggers, as well darts.

The real problem with druids doesn't emerge until late BG2. The lack of Raise Dead and Turn Undead starts to be a noticeable drawback. Further, Druids just stop leveling up completely. The Druids XP table is just plain stupid without the roleplaying elements that go were made to go with it.

I think fixing Shapeshifter was on the 'to-do' list. I don't think Shapeshifter rebalancing was planned prior to reddit AMAA, but that may change as the release date has been pushed back.

Brude

elminster said:

Clerics get entangle in BG1. Maybe not in BG2, but they do in BG1 Vanilla (with or without the expansion). That, or for whatever reason Viconia has it for me just because of the grace of the gods (obviously not Lolth).

Confirmed. I just added Viconia and checked, and she had the spell. This is confusing o me. I've been trying to find a comprehensive list of only Druid spells and haven't been able to. Vic isn't helping.

@ OP - Read this. It's a fun description of a self made BG2 party that includes a totemic Druid (and doesn't have a Cleric). She makes this oddball group sound really fun: http://www.gamebanshee.com/baldursgateii/strategies/perfectpartysoa10.php

@ Everybody - Had anyone tried a mod that rebalances the Druid progression tables? I think there are a few out there, and I've heard IWD2 uses different scaling which makes the class moe playable.

elminster

I just checked and entangle is not a cleric spell in BG2. So hopefully only druids will be able to get it in BGEE.

elminster

The other thing I would like that would benefit druids a lot (at least the ones using scimitars) would be enchanted bucklers. There is a buckler +1 in BG2, and supposable there is an enchanged buckler in Durlag's tower, but basically there isn't much choice there beyond that. I know it can't protect me against missile weapons, but it would still be nice to have better bucklers especially given it is the only shield druids can use.

Grimo88

Try playing an Avenger druid. Cast web, spider-form, win. Avenger is one of my favourite classes.

elminster

Ohh I do play as the avenger in BG2, just not BG1. Vanilla BG for me.

sandmanCCL

I think they need to remove "Summon Animal" and all its iterations for Clerics because then it'd really set Druids apart as the clear-cut better Divine summoner.

But yeah, as someone who's gone through the game with a billion different guys, druids are fine. It's just that level 14 to 15 gap where they fall behind and they pretty much catch up as soon as they gain that level. I understand they aren't everyone's cup of tea but I really enjoy druids.

I am going to go through BGtutu with a Berzerker whom I then dual-class to druid, I think, while I wait for BG:EE.

Quartz

elminster said:

Ohh I do play as the avenger in BG2, just not BG1. Vanilla BG for me.

This. Looking forward to BG:EE allowing me to use kits finally. Because TuTu is sinful

elminster

Well to be honest the biggest reason I dislike Tutu is that when I tried it someone had added random kits for different NPC's. There may be a fix for that (other than to manually change them all), but it was a sufficient turn off to get me to uninstall the mod. Similarly, I dislike Trilogy because of those annoying map markers that someone decided we need to have. To me it was annoying for instance that someone felt the need to label the "front gate" at the Friendly arm Inn. Isn't it obvious!

So yea, nothing to do with how those mods impacted druids.

sandmanCCL

BGtutu didn't add kits to any NPCs. It just gave them odd proficiency in weapons. I admit it's a turn off to me as well. Why on earth would they give Khalid bastard sword/dual-wield and remove his one rank in bow? Doesn't make sense. I have no qualms about fixing stuff like that with Shadowkeeper.