The multi vs dual class dilemma (again)

FredSRichardson

*SPOILER WARNING* : may contain some meta-game information


I've read a number of very informative threads on this site about multi and dual class characters. Comparing their relative strengths and weakness. I thought I'd share my own recent experience on this topic.

I recently played a Gnome Cleric/Illusionist in a party including Anomen and Imoen and three others (full party). By the end of SoA my character was level 15/14, Anomen (C/F) was 22/7 and Imoen (M/T) was 16/7 (Imoen is 1M XP behind - I should have gone to Spellhold sooner...?).

Anomen had awesome summons compared to me, but I was still close to Imoen's level.

Now in ToB I'm 16/14, Anomen is 24/7 and Imoen is 17/7 and advancing fast (as you can imagine).

So in this party I'm redundant. A small party without a Mage or Cleric might have worked, but a small party could make better us of a more powerful multiclass like a Gnomish F/M or M/T (ala Jan) or a Half-Elf R/C.

In a party of six I would be happier with a dual class. I like the idea of dualing a Berserker in BG2 (Zerkmage?). The Berserker is fun to play in BG1 because you can power through many pesky things in berserk state. The immunity is very powerful!

So in a party of 6 I think the Zerkmage (or maybe Kensage - which I don't like as much) dual would keep up better.

I'm playing a Blade now as I've heard many good things. The spell pool is small but the caster level is high and access to Thief HLAs should come sooner.

I also want to try a small party with a Gnomish C/T wielding a staff (or maybe a half-orc - so hard to decide!)

dracostrike

The number of slots you would of had as a gnome C/I should be a lot higher than those two I believe, but yeah you do lose out on levels as a multi. Check up the exp tables before you decide again on one and see what the final levels you could reach are.

FredSRichardson

Yeah, I didn't think it would bother me that much, but then I saw what the (almost) pure classes can do.

Philhelm

Generally speaking, dual classes are more powerful than multi or pure classes. If you dip in the first class just right, you can get many of the benefits of the initial class and only sacrifice one level of the secondary class. In addition, dual classes can take advantage of kits.

Anomen will eventually become a level 39 Cleric. In exchange for the loss of the 40th Cleric level, he will have better HP, better Thac0, and more APR. One of the things that I hate about dual classing is that it makes pure classes obsolete. Dual classing would be okay in PnP D&D, since the initial loss of the first class would be a much bigger deal than it is in a video game.

lunar

That is my dilemma, too. I always loved c/m in the past, but multi class puts you into a support role forever, you do not get to be great, wonderful, all powerful like pure classes, especially pure class mages whose high level spells are all that powerful. But you are always dependable, have a spell for almost every situation, and are good support. I want to play the lead role in my games, this is not real life so I want to get a chance to shine in a fantasy game at least.

Dual class is nicer and can be more powerful but I hate the time I spend as a single class, makes for boring game I think.

Then I discovered wild mage and never looked back. Plus, mages can heal too, good planetar has all the good cleric spells and then some. Also sometimes a wild surge can cause area effect heal. Admittedly, it was not welcome when I was battling big M at the end of the final ascension battle and she was down to badly injured, and then got to uninjured. But still..

sarevok57

speaking about multi-class, I played a team where every character on it was a multi-class, and one multi-class combination really took me by surprise on how awesome it was, and it was: half-orc fighter/thief using a two handed sword

in bg1 he was kicking some serious butt with that 19 starting STR, and I started putting all of his skill points in to detect illusion, and for some bizarre reason, having huge detect illusion was crushing enemies in bg1, like sirines for example, I would use detect illusion on them and dispel their improved invisibility and wail on them with spells and attacks ( since the -4 penalty no longer applied) and I turned them into chop suey, even the high level mages that were using invisibility/mirror image spells were getting destroyed

then, next I started to max out trap setting, and what I would do is lay a couple of traps down, and lure in the enemy in to them, and severely weakened them before the fight even began,

and this worked out great while my other mage/thief focused on the trap finding/lock picking and pick pocketing end of the spectrum

then SoA came buy, and he still kept on kicking some serious butt, again the detect illusion ability was working wonders on all those illusion casting casters

and then something very remarkable happened, when I hit 3 million XP I took the use any item ability and I starting wielding the holy avenger with my evil half-orc fighter/thief and it was absolutely awesome, not only is that a slap in the face to paladins, but the huge MR the dispelling magic on each hit, and with detect illusion being so high, I was a proverbial inquisitor but better in almost every way

and because of that use any item skill my fighter/thief could wear montolio's cloak and use the bard gloves which was just more icing on the cake

Ammar

I disagree with the assessment that dual class characters tend to me more powerful than multiclass ones. The comparison can be difficult though, as even with the same class combination you might play a multiclass character very differently from a dual class character.

The main advantage of the dual class is that you can gain a kit for your first class. In most cases, this is not sufficient to offset being able to progress far enough in that class to gain HLAs.

Dual class characters seem to be more powerful right after they get back the abilities of the first class and then fall back in the long run, when the multiclass character starts to get the HLAs of both classes.

A more detailed discussion would probably require us to pick one or more class combinations as examples. For example, with F/M I myself think gnome F/I is the best choice, due to the extra spell slots and shorty saves. It would also depend upon the level where you dual.

Either way, both options make you much more powerful than most of the NPCs, so that you will not really feel the difference unless you play with loads of difficulty enhancing mods and/or play solo.

Finally, to be really competitive in the end game you need to dual rather late, which means you spend a lot of the game with a single class. The multiclass characters has a much smoother progression and can be played consistently throughout the game. The latter can be either an advantage or a disadvantage, depending on whether you want a change.

RedWizard

Multi because I can't be assed to wait forever for the dual to regain its abilities back. Especially since I tend to start at BG1 whenever I make a BG2 run.
That and way more HLAs, and earlier too!

FredSRichardson

I think what I learned from this is that it depends on the party makeup. With other pure or dual class C and M in a party of six, the multi C/M was a little depressing. But... in a party of 3 multi-class chars things could be different. The leveling should be faster with less XP to share meaning faster access to higher levels. I'm not sure if it works out that way...

I also think some multi's are much better than others. @sarevok57 the Orcish F/T is pretty intriguing! I wondered about an Orcish C/T as well (wielding a staff).

Nuin

It all depends on party composition. If all that dual-classing gives me is marginally higher stats or skills another NPC already offers anyway, and in exchange I lose a crucial party member right when the party is at it's most vulnerable (like at the beginning of SoA) then it's not worth it. Multi-classing is different because you essentially have a very different kind of character from the start. Even from Irenicus' Dugeon a multiclass F/M, for example, can use wands while having decent melee/ranged capabilities. An FMT can do all that AND take care of all your trap disarming/lock opening needs. Obviously, each multiclass also has its own pros and cons - the F/M starts out rather squishy but ultimately becomes a melee powerhouse, while the FMT takes forever to gain levels but since it has most of the essentials covered you can customize your party however you want to.

NPCs are different. Each NPC has a higher level counterpart that spawns when you encounter him/her at a higher PC level. You could say that this is a definite "pro" for single class characters and even some duals, especially when the leveling class reaches higher PC levels faster than others (rogues, bards, druids before level 14).
Anyway this means that while your multi/dual PC is still struggling with his class identity issues you can get an NPC to skip most of that just by avoiding them until you reach higher levels. This is pretty easy to do if finish some of the easier quests with a small party. Note that the devs seemed aware that Anomen starts significantly more powerful than other NPCs, which is why he peaks the earliest (the highest level Anomen is a level 10 cleric, in contrast the highest level Viconia is level 13 - that's a massive gap in cleric XP).

Aewyrven

I think it depends on what you are doing. Back when this was just a computer game during SoA I went mage. Got the ToB expansion and went wild mage. I also loved the avenger druid.

When people talk about dual or multi or single class I get the impression they are not really going for the ... proper way to play...

Now don't hate yet... by proper I mean using their parties skills to maximum effect.

I played this game back on the computer and we burned tales of sword and shared it and swapped cd roms through all 5 discs of both the original and SoA. ... and hack patched not to have to. Even built chars and did irc fun on GameSpy multiplayer. .. moot point.

You play your class to its potential BUT you play it around a set party mind once you get out of chapter 1.

You build your character just as I do around not only the kind of char you want it to be, but also the group you will surround it with and the gear you need to make that char work, because honestly.... in this game, without the gear and the support of the party, you are most likely going to fail. (Yes you can solo but it's not as easy as most games, especially if you scratch roll)

It's probably why I love this game so much and am yes.. fanboi here... love beam dog ported it.... there is no perfect class and setup. There is your path and how you chose it. (Okay there are a few and there are some of us, myself included who plan to abd have push the game to its limits) but until you beat the game, until you understand how the game works.... us giving you a here's an Uber win godmode style..... good luck, and I'll be there feasting on your bones beside the dam gibberlings that can 2 hit u as surely as lord jiriden firecrag.

Philhelm

Ammar wrote: »

I disagree with the assessment that dual class characters tend to me more powerful than multiclass ones. The comparison can be difficult though, as even with the same class combination you might play a multiclass character very differently from a dual class character.

It depends on the class combination. I think that, say, a Fighter/Thief is a good multiclass option since a pure Thief gets far more thieving skill points than he'll ever need, and the class can take Fighter HLAs. Casting classes are a bit different, since many spells and abilities scale with the level of the casting class. A Fighter/Mage multi isn't going to be quite as good at being a Mage as a pure Mage would, since the pure Mage would get the most out of his spells.

Dual classing, depending on the build, allows for essentially having all the power of a pure class and then some, without paying much of a price. I could take around 10 levels of Fighter or so, and still max out as a Mage, Cleric, Thief, etc., save for one measly level. From a pure power vs. roleplay perspective, it's a no brainer. In addition, dual classes allow for kits and all sorts of shenanigans such as Kensai/Mage, Kensai/Thief (UAI), Wizard Slayer/Thief (UAI), Priest of Lathander/Mage, Berserker/Cleric, etc.

That Berserker X/Cleric 39 will have practically the same ability as a level 40 Cleric, plus extra Thac0, Grandmastery, APR, HP, berserk immunities, and will still have near maximum spell power, spell duration, turn undead ability, etc. The multiclass Fighter/Cleric will not have Grandmastery (and therefore a slightly lower APR), and will not be as good at being a Cleric due to casting spells at a lower level. Granted, the multi would be able to take Fighter HLAs, but I view dual classes as simply being a much stronger version of the second class. You're not so much a Berserker/Cleric as you are a Cleric with much greater fighting ability. I actually consider dual classing to be broken, since it makes pure classes practically obsolete, which is a shame. A pure Thief should always be the best thief, but even a Fighter 7/Thief 39 is so much more powerful. What dual classing should have done was prevent the player from taking those last 7 thief levels, so that you'd be limited to Fighter 7/Thief 32 (still better than pure Thief, but at least there is some loss.

Aside from convenience, HLA limitations, and the inability to take three classes, dual classing generally seems much more powerful than multi classing by a wide margin (although certain multiclass combinations can certainly compete).

prairiechicken

My personal idea:

SoA: Dual>Multi
ToB: Multi>Dual

Some HLAs are too powerful to ignore

Wowo

If your Gnome C/I isn't pulling his weight then that's your fault, not his.

Try this:
Minor Sequencer: DUHM+Shocking Grasp
Sequencer: Holy Power, x, x
Spell Trigger: Righteous Magic, Improved Haste, Tensers Transformation

Buff
Equip Flail of Ages
Polymorph Self -> Sword Spider form
Use sequencers.
Destroy everything!

Arunsun

Wowo wrote: »

If your Gnome C/I isn't pulling his weight then that's your fault, not his.

Try this:
Minor Sequencer: DUHM+Shocking Grasp
Sequencer: Holy Power, x, x
Spell Trigger: Righteous Magic, Improved Haste, Tensers Transformation

Buff
Equip Flail of Ages
Polymorph Self -> Sword Spider form
Use sequencers.
Destroy everything!

If you are willing to use bugs you might as well choose slayer form instead (with the same way of dispelling the weapon, and the mirror image trick). That would be a lot better on all respect.

FredSRichardson

@Arunsun - Do you mean that being able to use sequencers while polymorphed is a bug? Also, the slayer transform has some significant RP impact on the game! =D

@Wowo - I don't think I have access to spell trigger, Tensers, etc. I'll check, but my levels were still flagging (and Imoen is going to get there a lot sooner), but I have the two sequencers and I could throw in a contingency. I've never played with polymorph, but I've seen reference to the spider for uber APR (if only there were a blunt Belm!).

But there again it comes down to party composition. In a party of 6 with a single/dual class cleric and mage I have spent a lot of time feeling inferior. But in a smaller party (say 3) without single/dual class cleric or mage I could see those high levels come sooner and never have to compare myself to those single/dual classes (they are so full of themselves! =P)

Wowo

FredSRichardson said:

@Arunsun - Do you mean that being able to use sequencers while polymorphed is a bug? Also, the slayer transform has some significant RP impact on the game! =D

@Wowo - I don't think I have access to spell trigger, Tensers, etc. I'll check, but my levels were still flagging (and Imoen is going to get there a lot sooner), but I have the two sequencers and I could throw in a contingency. I've never played with polymorph, but I've seen reference to the spider for uber APR (if only there were a blunt Belm!).

But there again it comes down to party composition. In a party of 6 with a single/dual class cleric and mage I have spent a lot of time feeling inferior. But in a smaller party (say 3) without single/dual class cleric or mage I could see those high levels come sooner and never have to compare myself to those single/dual classes (they are so full of themselves! =P)

Well the strategy works well from the moment you are level 9 cleric as at this point you get to 19 strength in spider form with 5 APR and your weapon of choice along with good AC and Mage defenses. More levels just adds to the fun.

FredSRichardson

Wowo said:

Well the strategy works well from the moment you are level 9 cleric as at this point you get to 19 strength in spider form with 5 APR and your weapon of choice along with good AC and Mage defenses. More levels just adds to the fun.

In that case I have to agree with you initial assessment, I've been holding my C/I back!

Arunsun

FredSRichardson said:

@Arunsun - Do you mean that being able to use sequencers while polymorphed is a bug? Also, the slayer transform has some significant RP impact on the game! =D

@Wowo - I don't think I have access to spell trigger, Tensers, etc. I'll check, but my levels were still flagging (and Imoen is going to get there a lot sooner), but I have the two sequencers and I could throw in a contingency. I've never played with polymorph, but I've seen reference to the spider for uber APR (if only there were a blunt Belm!).

But there again it comes down to party composition. In a party of 6 with a single/dual class cleric and mage I have spent a lot of time feeling inferior. But in a smaller party (say 3) without single/dual class cleric or mage I could see those high levels come sooner and never have to compare myself to those single/dual classes (they are so full of themselves! =P)

I meant that dispelling the weapon and keeping the APR and other stats is an exploit of the game engine limitations indeed. That you can use sequencer while polymorphed does not feel wrong to me, but dispelling the weapon definitely is not intended behaviour. You should either get Spider weapon back after consuming shocking grasp, or be transformed back to human, but definitely not be an hybrid with OP APR.

FredSRichardson

Arunsun said:

I meant that dispelling the weapon and keeping the APR and other stats is an exploit of the game engine limitations indeed. That you can use sequencer while polymorphed does not feel wrong to me, but dispelling the weapon definitely is not intended behaviour. You should either get Spider weapon back after consuming shocking grasp, or be transformed back to human, but definitely not be an hybrid with OP APR.

Okay, I think I get it now. I had to look this up to understand the exploit. I guess when shocking grasp is done you get your "human" weapon back instead of the spider form weapon. So the engine limitation is that it assumes that any consumed magical weapon (e.g. shocking grasp) will leave you with your real physical weapon (e.g. flail of ages) but in spider form it should leave you with the spider claw (which I guess is also a magical weapon). So instead of dispelling the spider claw, it should remember that you had the spider claw before shocking grasp and restore it.

I'll have to check redmine, maybe they're working on a fix? Seems like a definite engine bug.