True Grand Mastery Mod, yay or nay?

Debaser

The last little mod I couldn't get to work...but it always irked me that Grand Mastery didn't work like it did in the books in BG2, it was almost pointless to go for it because it was extremely nerfed honestly. Anyone get this mod to work? Was it overpowered? Or worth it?

Brude

I installed this just on principle, although I havent completed a full playthrough with it to speak to balnce issues. (My guess: noticeable but not by much. The mods altering THAC0 progression would have a much bigger impact on a fight by fight basis).

It annoyed me when the game was first released, and it still annoys me. The nerf makes a pure, baseline fighter rather pointless.

If these developers were so concerned with balance, then how could they nerf Grand Mastery then turn around and give thieves something like UAI? Pfft. Gimme a break, Bioware.

Debaser

See this is the kind of stuff I hope they're addressing by employing modders...I totally agree that it makes normal fighters a basically worthless class. They have zero advantages over other kits without it. Also the THACO progression should be fixed on principal...give the enemies more hit points if you have to.

Demivrgvs

True Grandmastery mod makes GM very overpowered because for some reason they added in half an attack per round more than they should (aka, you get another full attack with GM instead of another half - totalling at +3/2 instead of +1 when coupled with the half attack given by specialization).

Fortunately, BGEE will restore BG1 Grandmastery, with the correct apr bonus.

In the meanwhile you may try Revised Grandmastery (http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=17307). I did it for a much bigger mod though (Kit Revisions), and the change applied to specialization (++) may seem unwelcome at first sight (it favours true fighter classes on purpose - but is part of a bigger picture), even if it actually makes the system more close to PnP.

Brude

I should really look it up -- but it's either SCS or BG2Tweaks which has components for all this stuff. Grand Master I can see reverting.

THAC0 and spell progression tables (as allowed in the component) .. Maybe not so much. The original game AI is pretty thick headed and once you've played through a couple of times, the game is pretty easy.

The only real way to up the challenge is to install a bunch of tactical AI mods, and messing with THAC0 seems to against the spirit of doing that -- like the player is stacking the deck a little bit too much in their favor.

Debaser

@Demivrgvs Thanks for that great post man! I really appreciate it, and it's good to hear they've considered correcting Grand Mastery for the EE. And @Brute, I agree about the AI, I really hope they've worked on improving it a lot to make it harder / more tactical.

Shin

I always use the mod, and it works well. Not like it causes any tangible imbalances, at any rate. There seems to exist a pervasive idea that original vanilla BG contains some kind of immutable, laser-measured sense of supreme balance as a result of the developers' thorough testing, tweaking, rule-reading and philosophizing -- but to the best of my knowledge, a gaming community is' nearly always better at determining proper balance (not to mention flushing out bugs and exploits) than a development team, for obvious reasons.

Debaser

@Shin I totally concur.

Jaxsbudgie

Does anyone know if bonus half attacks per round are still limited to fighters with the ** specialisation?
Classes like the Swashbuckler get little bonuses from being able to put ** into melee weapons.

Tanthalas

The bonus to attacks per round through Specialization will continue to be exclusive to warrior classes.

Jaxsbudgie

@Tanthalas
Cheers for clarifying that ... any idea if Thieves and Bards can put 3* into two-weapon fighting a la Rogue Rebalancing?

Tanthalas

@Jaxsbudgie

Probably only Blades and Swashbucklers if I'm not mistaken.

Dragonspear

@Tanthalas

Only Swashbucklers. Blades can only put 1 proficiency point into their weapons. They can however put 3 points into Dual Weapon Mastery.

Roller12

It was in BG1, so yay. Nay for BG2 because it wasnt there.

Tanthalas

It actually wasn't in vBG1 either. Grand Mastery wasn't giving an extra half-attack.

AurenRavidel

They really should implement this. Fighters need some love.

Roller12

Tanthalas said:

It actually wasn't in vBG1 either. Grand Mastery wasn't giving an extra half-attack.

ofc it was


WSPATCK.2da

2DA V1.0
0
LEVEL1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
1 0 0 0 0 0 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
2 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 1 1 1 1 1 1 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2
3 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 1 1 1 1 1 1 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2
4 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 1 1 1 1 1 1 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2
5 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 -2 2 2 2 2 2 2 -3 -3 -3 -3 -3 -3 -3 -3


edit: taken from default.bif. Although various mods may add different things, no idea, didnt use them..

Silence

Why is everyone so committed to protecting the fighter's grandmastery, but no one cares about protecting the ranger's dual wield? Why does the fighter keep all exclusive advantages, but other classes don't? People seem to support the 'true to PnP' argument only when it makes their character better.

In vanilla BG1/BG2, most of the rangers powers are not up to snuff with the overwhelming power of true GM. Weak stealth ability, mediocre spells which are obsolete by the time you get them, and the charm animal ability are not competitive with true GM. That the ranger gets dual wield for free is actually pretty irrelevant. Fighters will always dual wield better due to true GM. Before they required a high DEX to do this and now they don't. Now, you can still play the ranger for RP reasons (and I will). But let's not call this balanced, 'cause it's not.

Having looked over @Demivrgvs' mods, they're pretty awesome and a far better option than true GM alone. When you buff up favoured enemy and the rangers other powers, the extra attack lost is not such a big deal.

As for the paladin, he will always be a little powered due to the fact he has no real disadvantage. Most of the game rewards strict lawful good actions and punishes evil actions (with few exceptions).

Dee

Probably because grandmastery is the only thing (only thing) fighters have going for them.

Roller12

Rangers dont have 2 pips in dual wield in BGee anymore?

Dee

No, they do.

I'm not sure where that idea came from.

Debaser

@Silence, I wasn't aware that the mod was different than Pen and Paper or what was in BG1, I just know that BG1's Grand Mastery was a lot better than BG2's version which was never worth the proficiency points to begin with. It mad the top tier ability worthless against taking reinforcement skills like Two Handed Fighting and Dual Wielding which at least yielded real bonuses. There was almost no point in going over two dots...which every other warrior class can have.

I'd like them to at least keep it closer to AD&D 2nd Edition rules than it was for BG2.

AHF

Silence said:

That the ranger gets dual wield for free is actually pretty irrelevant. Fighters will always dual wield better due to true GM. Before they required a high DEX to do this and now they don't. Now, you can still play the ranger for RP reasons (and I will). But let's not call this balanced, 'cause it's not.

When did BG fighters need a certain dex to dual wield?

Tanthalas

@Roller12

If I'm reading that table right Grand Mastery was giving 3/2 attacks in vBG1, when its supposed to only give 1 attack.

Debaser

@Tanthalas That should 3/2 total. Not on top of. So it would be an additional attack at that level (+1)

Demivrgvs

Debaser said:

@Tanthalas That should 3/2 total. Not on top of. So it would be an additional attack at that level (+1)

Yeah, but as @Tanthalas says GM is supposed to give only +1/2 apr, for a total of +1 attack (aka: +1/2 apr from specialization +1/2 apr from GM = +1 apr).

Debaser

@Demivrgvs @Tanthalas That would be fine too...it's still better than what you get from the final bonus in BG2. I'm pretty easy man...I'm fine with original rule intent.

Silence

@AHF: In 'true PnP' dual wield was only available without an attack penalty to rangers wearing studded leather armour. For other classes to dual wield, they needed very high DEX scores (because reaction adjustment, determined by DEX, negated the attack penalty).

In BG1, there was no dual wield. In BG2, they adopted a dual wield which did not require DEX but proficiency slots. Fighters could access it regardless of DEX, as could paladins, rangers and some rogues (Swashbucklers and Blades). This made dual wield highly accessible, and kind of took away the appeal of the ranger class. I know the ranger gets some slots for free now, but it's nothing compared to the more exclusive access they received before.

I still believe that spellcasting and stealth and dual wield are not worth the additional XP and inferior apr. I still love the class regardless, but as it stands paladin and fighter are somewhat better.

Not arguing against true GM, just arguing for more ranger love. True GM is strongly supported by fans.

Miloch

Good discussion about it a while back... dunno if it was ever implemented PnP-style though... there was quite a difference between the BG1 and BG2 systems as I recall.

http://www.shsforums.net/topic/30968-grandmastery-fix-please-compare-nerfed-vs-fixed/

Dee

The extra attacks per round from Specialization and Grand Mastery benefit all warriors, not just fighters. So if you're an Archer (ranger kit), and you've got maximum slots in Longbows, you'll get those extra attacks per round.

You're also forgetting the rather significant bonus conferred by Hated Foe. +4 to hit and damage against a particular enemy type is more than a little handy.

AurenRavidel

Silence said:

In BG1, there was no dual wield. In BG2, they adopted a dual wield which did not require DEX but proficiency slots. Fighters could access it regardless of DEX, as could paladins, rangers and some rogues (Swashbucklers and Blades). This made dual wield highly accessible, and kind of took away the appeal of the ranger class. I know the ranger gets some slots for free now, but it's nothing compared to the more exclusive access they received before.

They never had exclusive access. In 2nd Edition they received the bonus you mentioned, but they were not the only class capable of dual wielding. 3rd Edition required a Dexterity score for certain feats, but not 2nd Edition, which is the ruleset used in Baldur's Gate.

AD&D PHB said:

A tricky fighting style available only to warriors and rogues is that of fighting with two weapons simultaneously. The character chooses not to use a shield in favor of another weapon, granting him a greater number of attacks, with a penalty to his attack rolls (rangers are exempt from the attack roll penalty).