Add Bows that give strength bonus damage to arrows

LadyRhian

In the Pen and Paper game, you could buy Bows that added your strength bonus to any arrows shot from them. Even if it's only up to a +6 or +7 (18/00 or 19 Strength). This would be nice to add in game. For every + added to the damage, the price of the bow is increased by the original cost of the bow. So a Composite Longbow that allows 18/00 Strength Damage would cost 600 gp, and one that allows +7 would be 700 gp. Obviously, you're not going to be buying one in Candlekeep, but maybe if you could get one from Taerom Fuiruim or in some of the shops in Baldur's Gate, that would be fine. Just... something to aspire to, you know?

Brude

Unintended side effects? You've just made Kivan and Minsc the best archers in the game and simultaneously delivered a massive nerf to Coran (who has 3 points in Bows and a 20 DEX, but only a 14 STR).

LadyRhian

@Brude It's only damage, not "to hit". So Coran would still hit more often.

SpaceInvader

The problem is that once you activate the "Influenced by str" ability, it applies even if you reach 25 str...
And this would be physically absurd: the bow's string should break if you pull it too much.
If there could be a way to cap it to a certain bonus it would be great!

Chippy

"Even if it's only up to a +6 or +7 (18/00 or 19 Strength". LadyRhian

Maybe capped according to tensile strength of material?. I suppose the 25 strength of bow damage could be comparable to the x7 (wasn't it x8 with a certain dagger) backstab of a thief. I haven't done the maths, but expect it would be interesting.

On a slightly related note - I always wondered if THACO should also apply to damage? My memory is a bit hazy, but didn't PS:T handle it as just 'to hit'?. Then damage is based on strength for a bow, and weaker characters use crossbows, which if I remember always had quite a high hit/damage.

bigdogchris

I see no reason why STR bonus should apply to bow damage as your strength has no affect on how much force is put into the arrow.

Now, if you wanted magical bows added that had a high STR requirement with +damage modifier, then I would be fine with that.

reedmilfam

@bigdogchris - You're not exactly right. Bows are rated by 'pull', or the force required to draw that particular bow. High 'pull' bows confer significantly higher kinetic energy to the projectile (arrow) than low pull. It's also why heavy crossbows are more damaging than light.

Rather than a STR bonus, bows should have a STR rating with more damaging ones requiring higher STR. I've also always been a fan of DEX bonus to damage for bows, as the placement of the arrow is better. That's a house rule thing, I guess, as I nerf bows indoors and do some other things to balance out the benefit.

Tanthalas

I think that the current bows actually do what @bigdogchris suggests.

bigdogchris

reedmilfam said:

@bigdogchris - You're not exactly right. Bows are rated by 'pull', or the force required to draw that particular bow. High 'pull' bows confer significantly higher kinetic energy to the projectile (arrow) than low pull. It's also why heavy crossbows are more damaging than light.

Rather than a STR bonus, bows should have a STR rating with more damaging ones requiring higher STR. I've also always been a fan of DEX bonus to damage for bows, as the placement of the arrow is better. That's a house rule thing, I guess, as I nerf bows indoors and do some other things to balance out the benefit.

You may want to re-read my post. I mentioned adding a STR requirement for bows with +dam modifier, as it would be a bow harder to pull back.

LadyRhian

@Tanthalas Is there a way to cap the +str bonus damage without setting the bow as magical?. STR Bow 1- made for 16 or 17 Strength, adds +1 STR damage bonus to arrows... All the way up to STR Bow 7- Adds +7 Damage bonus to arrows, requires 19 STR to use.

Tanthalas

@LadyRhian

I don't think that's possible. Looking at the items, there's a flag to enable or disable the strength bonus, but none to limit it I think.

The easiest way would be to apply the same solution as the one for Composite bows. Make a STR requirement for equipping the bow and then have it automatically grant the bonus damage.

LadyRhian

@Tanthalas That could work. But isn't there a strength requirement for some weapons? How does that work in the code?

Tanthalas

Yeah, several equipment has a strength requirement to be used. I haven't checked how that looks like in the code though.

LadyRhian

@Tanthalas Because I was thinking that was another way to do it. Put in the strength requirement, add the str bonus to the damage the weapon does, but not code it as magical.

Tanthalas

Adding damage to bows wouldn't matter. Its the projectile that has to be magical.

A Short Bow +1 firing a normal arrow wouldn't turn the arrow magical.

LadyRhian

Hmmm. Okay, thanks!

reedmilfam

bigdogchris said:

reedmilfam said:

@bigdogchris - You're not exactly right. Bows are rated by 'pull', or the force required to draw that particular bow. High 'pull' bows confer significantly higher kinetic energy to the projectile (arrow) than low pull. It's also why heavy crossbows are more damaging than light.

Rather than a STR bonus, bows should have a STR rating with more damaging ones requiring higher STR. I've also always been a fan of DEX bonus to damage for bows, as the placement of the arrow is better. That's a house rule thing, I guess, as I nerf bows indoors and do some other things to balance out the benefit.

You may want to re-read my post. I mentioned adding a STR requirement for bows with +dam modifier, as it would be a bow harder to pull back.

Yup. I got caught up on the first sentence and missed the next bit. We're simpatico.

Dee

Tanthalas said:

Adding damage to bows wouldn't matter. Its the projectile that has to be magical.

A Short Bow +1 firing a normal arrow wouldn't turn the arrow magical.

Which is really just sad. I've got this really awesome, really expensive bow, but because I don't have enough +1 arrows, it's totally useless.

Brude

LadyRhian said:

@Brude It's only damage, not "to hit". So Coran would still hit more often.

@LadyRhian You're talking about more than doubling the base damage for high strength archers when using a plain bow with regular arrows. This would give fighters and rangers huge burst damage, on top of using a weapon with a high attack speed.

This seems remarkably unbalanced, and in the case of NPCs like Kivan and Shar-teel, I'm not sure I understand why their ranged attacks need buffs when they're already so powerful.


In short fights (which most of them are), Coran would still lose out.

LadyRhian

@Brude Well, it seems impossible to do anyway, based on the code, so I guess it's academic now.

Awong124

There are bows in the game that have bonus to damage already, regardless of what type of arrow is being used. I don't see why it would be that hard to implement.

As for whether or not it would be balanced is besides the point. If you have a bow that has higher tension and requires more strength to draw, the resulting projectile will have higher velocity and thus do more damage. It makes sense.

bigdogchris

I think what it comes down to is that there must be a STR requirement if you want +DAM added to bows, due to strength. I see no way to justify the default STR atk/dam bonus to ranged weapons as it is not even in the rules.

I discussed +STR bonus to slings in another thread but that didn't go anywhere. The only 'ranged' weapons that have STR damage bonus applied are hurled weapons, ie., boulders, rocks, etc., which I do not think even exist in BG except for wizard and priest spells.

LadyRhian

@bigdogchris That's what I am proposing. Seven new bows, each with a strength bonus of +1 to +7 which require a strength with a damage bonus of that much to use.

bigdogchris

LadyRhian said:

@bigdogchris That's what I am proposing. Seven new bows, each with a strength bonus of +1 to +7 which require a strangth with a damage bonus of that much to use.

OK I see where you're going, but what would be the strength required for say the +7 to damage bow, 25str? Composite Long Bows already have a STR requirement that add + DAM though.

LadyRhian

Nope. a +7 is a 19 Strength- which is where I propose leaving it off, because a starting Half-Orc could conceivably have that much. a 25 Strength would be +14.

Silence

I support this. It would redeem missile combat in BG2 (which is somewhat underwhelming unless you're an archer) and it would be more in line with PnP.

reedmilfam

It would actually overpower bows. Doing this would require adjusting bows to be more realistic. You cannot aim and fire arrows faster than you can use a melee weapon, to say nothing of crossbows.

Silence

A major hurdle for the engine is that the biggest advantage for bows - range - cannot be implemented. You generally only engage enemies a few feet from you and the battlefield is comparatively small. The APR as I understood is one way of compensating. But yeah, we'd need to adjust bows a little to make this truly work.

LadyRhian

In Pen and Paper rules, you can fire 2 arrows a round, and even Weapon Mastery doesn't increase the number of attacks you get with a bow (only hand to hand weapon attacks). Crossbows are less because you have to manually recock the crossbow in a way that a "normal" bow doesn't require.

Hypevosa

I'd say it can be balanced with quests and rare ingredients. Have the wood for the bow itself, and the strings be components from hard to reach places and hard to kill monsters, so that the item isn't at all common and has to be sought out. For example, requiring a bit of iron wood and the sinew from the muscle of a dead dragon to make a bow that has a strength requirement of 20 to wield and does +6 damage (or whatever it is).

Let materials be the limiter here - perhaps even require that some materials be stolen from other quests (like with the disrupting mace) in order to make the items.

ego1ste

@Hypevosa I think it's a good idea. Bows like that would be considerably more powerful, but would also require more strength maybe even took more time to make a shoot. But it would also pack a punch like some 2 handed melee weapon.