Spell Checks Vs Wisdom never worked in the original game?

Debaser

They worked in Icewind Dale (I think) and Icewind Dale 2 (FOR SURE...they had a dramatic effect on the game)

But can someone confirm this. I read this in another post. And I really think it's terrible if that's the case (makes magic a bit unbalanced)

Zaor

They were never included into bg1/bg2, no. It does NOT make magic unbalanced. You can still easily get your saves well below -4 if you try, to 1 or 2 if you don't. Personally, in later games, I never use save-or-else spells just because everyone tends to save!

I confess, however, that I am one of the few around these parts that hasn't played IWD.

Debaser

@Zaor I know for a fact it was a huge factor in how I set up my party for IWD2 because without buffing your main tank character with high saves you get ruined on the harder difficulty settings.

I was thinking it would make the game unbalanced for the enemies more so than the NPCS and the PC....because most spell casting really comes from you and your party.

Silence

I don't think they existed in IWD1, but they definitely were in IWD2. In IWD2 they implemented 3e rules with the will save.

I'd love to see WIS play a role in BG. A number of threads exist on this topic actually. Here is a big one:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/95/request-pnp-bonuses-for-high-int-and-wis-scores/p1

Zaor

Debaser said:

@Zaor I know for a fact it was a huge factor in how I set up my party for IWD2 because without buffing your main tank character with high saves you get ruined on the harder difficulty settings.

I was thinking it would make the game unbalanced for the enemies more so than the NPCS and the PC....because most spell casting really comes from you and your party.

After a few minutes of research, IWD2 is based on the 3rd edition spell system. Saves work COMPLETELY different. Do some research on the 2nd edition save system. Essentially, instead of save bonuses modifying a roll the player makes with no limit in sight (A straight +5 bonus or whatever to your d20). 3rd edition also employs DC (Difficulty Classes) heavily based on the level and skill of the casting mage, which can be much higher than they are in 2nd edition where the magic-user is completely-irrelevant. (A level 10 wizard and a level 40 wizard cast the same spell with the same requirement to save for Joe Fighter) 2nd edition works in needlessly over complicated ways. Each character has a set save success number for various types of saves.

For instance: Joe Fighter has save vs spells of 10. If he rolls a 10 or higher, he saves. In the case we are talking, high level combat, we reach saves of -4 or lower for maxed out people with the best saves or 1 or 2 for normal people. That is, you have to roll a -4 on a die 20 to save. With a few save penalties on very select spells, it is still technically possible to fail with a -4 but incredibly unlikely and requires a lot of set up.

As such, making your -4's become -9's just means you will be immune to all save or else spells no matter how many penalties you stack, as opposed to being immune to 99% of them. While it would help the other case, it would further make save-or-else spells completely useless late game. The best save or else spells late game have a 15% chance of working or so (35% with malison). I don't know about you, but I don't think that needs further nerfing.




EDIT: Just to be clear, Save or else spells in my mind are spells that have some sort of nasty effect if you don't save but little to no effect if you do save. That is, Wail of the Banshee is save-or-else but Horrid Wilting is not.

Debaser

Thanks for clearing that up...but then doesn't Wisdom become a bit of a dump stat?

Zaor

Debaser said:

Thanks for clearing that up...but then doesn't Wisdom become a bit of a dump stat?

I agree that wisdom could be boosted. I'm just arguing against the necessity of it to add to saves and how the lack of the wisdom saves does NOT makes magic unbalanced. There are several other threads, one of which I believe Silence linked, that discusses the balance aspect of stats. Many people around here feel intelligence, wisdom, and charisma all need to be more useful.

Debaser

Zaor said:

Debaser said:

Thanks for clearing that up...but then doesn't Wisdom become a bit of a dump stat?

I agree that wisdom could be boosted. I'm just arguing against the necessity of it to add to saves and how the lack of the wisdom saves does NOT makes magic unbalanced. There are several other threads, one of which I believe Silence linked, that discusses the balance aspect of stats. Many people around here feel intelligence, wisdom, and charisma all need to be more useful.

@Zaor I totally agree with that...especially when it comes to conversation options and how people react to you. Those things in tandem define how people perceive you, so gimping one stat vs another always feels wrong to me. But from a power gaming standpoint it's hard to justify points in those stats if your class doesn't require them already. I guess I like the saves because it's a technical reason to want the stat. But you're probably right.