Charm spells need to buff!

Emeus

In AD&D 2E, victims under the effect of Charm person/Domination may only try to make another saving throw once per 3 weeks if their intellect in around 10-12, even the most intellect people(19+) may only try to break the effect once per day, the spell last forever if not saved or dispelled.

In Baldur's Gate however, Charm person, Dire charm and Domination last too short(5 rounds and 8 rounds), and there are equipments that offer way much stronger charm effect, two cloaks that one can charm person once per day, and another has 40 charges, also there is a bard tool can cast Domination for 20 times, ALL THEIR EFFECTS LAST 12 HOURS AND WON'T TURN THEIR VICTIM HOSTILE.

I think lots of players don't even know, that most NPCs in Baldur's Gate have unique dialog if they were charmed, some of them will give you gold or jewelries, some of them will update your journal, and of course they will let you take anything within their house and all of them is fun! Such a shame they didn't carry this to Baldur's Gate II though.

Anyway, back to the topic, I think charm spells last too short, there are even better spells to cast in THE SAME SCHOOL(Sleep, Hold Person, Hold Monster, Feeblemind), since charmed victims can't leave their current area and will turn hostile after the spell is end, the proper duration of charm spells should be at least 24 hours, what say you?

Emeus

After updated to 2.0, I found out charm effect will occasionally break for no reason if cast upon a hostile target, just like in IWDEE, now they definitely need to buff!

WanderingScholar

I feel like charm spells have always had some quirky bugs in them. Even in the current BG2EE v2.0.62.2 "test run" that I did a charm spell cast by an enemy expired on one of my summons (a nymph), yet control of the summon wasn't returned (although it did become non-hostile).

For me the usefulness of charm spells has always been very "encounter specific". I agree that they could use a buff but it might be difficult to go about this in a balanced way. For instance, your suggestion about increasing the duration of charm spells to 24hrs immediately becomes a problem when these spells are cast on your own party members! The only reasonable way of removing this effect would be to have a successful dispel magic cast on that character (which in BG1 is a luxury). I think the best bet would be to make the charm spells duration level dependent (1 round/level).

It would also be broken if damaging the enemy didn't break the charm. You could essentially charm non-hostiles and beat them down with no consequence (they would never turn red). Even feeblemind is a hostile spell.

-As a side note on spell "hostility" they should edit certain spells like web, silence, etc..to cause hostility even if the target makes their save (I might request this as a feature). I think it's safe to say I'd be pissed if these spells where cast on me!

dib

Charm is pretty OP in BG actually, since it gives you direct control of the charmed creature, when it's only supposed to make them think that you are a friend, nothing else. It would be tricky to implement properly in the IE engine while keeping it a smooth experience, but at most I think charm should just turn hostile creatures neutral. Already neutral creatures would stay neutral but the player would get always get the maximum reaction roll when talking to them - this would of course imply making reaction rolls matter more than just in a few side quests at the start of BG1.

Domination is a whole different thing, of course.

Emeus

WanderingScholar said:

I feel like charm spells have always had some quirky bugs in them. Even in the current BG2EE v2.0.62.2 "test run" that I did a charm spell cast by an enemy expired on one of my summons (a nymph), yet control of the summon wasn't returned (although it did become non-hostile).

For me the usefulness of charm spells has always been very "encounter specific". I agree that they could use a buff but it might be difficult to go about this in a balanced way. For instance, your suggestion about increasing the duration of charm spells to 24hrs immediately becomes a problem when these spells are cast on your own party members! The only reasonable way of removing this effect would be to have a successful dispel magic cast on that character (which in BG1 is a luxury). I think the best bet would be to make the charm spells duration level dependent (1 round/level).

It would also be broken if damaging the enemy didn't break the charm. You could essentially charm non-hostiles and beat them down with no consequence (they would never turn red). Even feeblemind is a hostile spell.

-As a side note on spell "hostility" they should edit certain spells like web, silence, etc..to cause hostility even if the target makes their save (I might request this as a feature). I think it's safe to say I'd be pissed if these spells where cast on me!

Enemy AI is flawed in 2.0, seems they are using the same AI from IWDEE, they fixed the invisible track glitch but the ignore-control-effect glitch lingering still, some enemies would ignore or simply break certain effects(charm, panic, etc.), don't know why they still released this crippled AI, I remember this bug has been reported before.

As for the charm spells, I think making it 5 rounds + 1 round/level would be no better than 24 hours, any enchantment spells cast by enemy mages are dire if one failed their saving throws, avoid a debuff is always better than dispel one, and there are plenty of way to avoid to be charmed, sending an elf companion to the head line is, the most common way, and of course you can by greenstone amulet in Ulgoth's Beard. But after all, there are so few enemies in BGEE who knows charm spells or prefer to cast it, siren is the only creature I recall would prefer using charm.

Emeus

dib said:

Charm is pretty OP in BG actually, since it gives you direct control of the charmed creature, while it's only supposed to make them think that you are a friend, nothing else. It would be tricky to implement properly in the IE engine while keeping it a smooth experience, but at most I think charm should just turn hostile creatures neutral. Already neutral creatures would stay neutral but the player would get always get the maximum reaction roll when talking to them - this would of course imply making reaction rolls matter more than just in a few side quests at the start of BG1.

Domination is a whole different thing, of course.

No, it is not, even the original charm person in 2e rule is better than the 5 rounds domination, making an enemy thinks you are a dear friend removes him from battle instantly, you can butcher his fellows as long as you don't attempt to harm him, you can even ask for support such as healing from him if you have high charisma, and of course if this enemy is powerful and brave enough he will defend his "dear friend" instead of those normal friends he has, but due to game mechanic we will never see it in Baldur's Gate.

As for Domination, well, I just figured out yesterday, that even the texts of Algernon's Cloak and Nymph's Cloak says "charm creature", it actually charms anything that Domination does, and they are better, 12 hours and won't cause hostility, Nymph's Cloak even has 40 charges. Charm spells are completely a flavored choice by now and by so long, even among enchanters, why would I dominate a minion while I can crowd control it or simply kill it, if it is an elite one, then why deal it 5 or 8 rounds later while I can one shot it with feeblemind, spell slots are not unlimited after all, charm spells really need to buff a bit.