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Determine Sorcerer's spell number by Charisma

AntonAnton Member, Moderator, Mobile Tester Posts: 513
edited August 2012 in Archive (Feature Requests)
Sorcerers are supposed to need charisma to cast spells, but it wasn't implemented into the game because sorcerers are actually a new class that was added in 3rd edition. Sorcerers never existed in 2nd edition.

Currently Sorcerer can have CHA 9, INT 9, WIS 9 and kick ass.
The only factor that influence sorcerer's spells is character level.

Perhaps Charisma's attribute influence should be implemented into BGEE after all?
Post edited by Anton on

Comments

  • trinittrinit Member Posts: 705
    frankly i never understood why it was charisma of all thing to determine the number of spells for sorcerers? good looks and ability for leadership is necessary for spellcasting? do spells in sorcerers case need to be convinced to be cast?

    i never saw explanation for this and it seems to me like wisdom (force of will) would make more sense, even intelligence. can someone please post quick explanation, please :)
    and i agree, sorcerers need their defining stat, even if it is charisma :)
  • AkerhonAkerhon Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 614
    Sorcerer use Charisma like a Bard in 3rd.
  • trinittrinit Member Posts: 705
    @Akerhon: yes they sure do, but you answer doesnt' explain why are they doing it.

    nevermind, i googled it and found extensive explanation on the topic. let's hope to see charisma implemented for sorcerers in bg:ee.
  • AkerhonAkerhon Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 614
    :D
  • maverickmaverick Member Posts: 27
    Well that depends if they'll decide to use AD&D 3rd edition like Icewind dale 2. Why not? But it's logical that the main attribute for a character should influence its kit. It'll be more realistic and closer to the P&P that I prefer ^^
  • CommunardCommunard Member Posts: 556
    Well that depends if they'll decide to use AD&D 3rd edition like Icewind dale 2. Why not? But it's logical that the main attribute for a character should influence its kit. It'll be more realistic and closer to the P&P that I prefer ^^
    They've said they won't be changing the edition, but the Sorcerer was "ported" from 3e in the original game, and should reflect the rules it's supposed to have, IMO. A caster without a casting stat is just silly...
  • trinittrinit Member Posts: 705
    @Communard: yeah, i heard about "not changing the edition", but i think that is just being silly. like you said, sorcerers are ported, monk also if i'm not mistaken, and concept of HLA's was taken from thin air, purely for allowing more powers and level progression beyond 20. at least that is what i've heard.

    i hope developers will recognize that fixing inconsistent ports and underdeveloped segments of gameplay is more important than sudden adherence to 2E rules when the game is not, nor it has been, purely 2e anyway.
  • AzL0nAzL0n Member Posts: 126
    ''A caster without a casting stat is just silly...''

    Indeed.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    I support this request. Sorcerers might as well not be part of AD&D, but they have a full array of P&P stats in 3rd Ed. D&D and they should remain faithful to it (or to its best adaptation to AD&D anyway).

    Also, +2 for the caster without a casting stat being silly thing.
  • pacekpacek Member Posts: 92
    Just raise minimum charisma to 16?
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Charisma isn't only a problem for Sorcerer's though. When you start a new game and are choosing your character's attributes doesn't the in-game help say something like CHA is important for Paladins, Bards and Druids?

    Do Paladins and Bards even use Charisma for anything? Charisma is only even important for Druids if you're a human that wants to dual-class out or into a Druid I think.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    edited June 2012
    They also say CHA is important to Rangers, if memory serves, which makes roleplaying sense in P&P campaigns but not so much in Baldur's Gate (in fact, I doubt CHA actually does anything for Rangers ingame).
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    edited June 2012
    They say CON is important for Rangers I think.

    Which asides from HP (which is important for everyone) is only relevant for Rangers because its the stat used to allow humans to dual-class.

    EDIT:
    @AndreaColombo

    Yeah, I don't know any PnP rules, but I get Charisma being important for stuff like Charm Animal, but I'm not sure if the Ranger ability actually relies on Charisma or not.
  • AkerhonAkerhon Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 614
    Rangers don't use Wisdom (like in 3rd)?
    I remember that Rangers can't have 13 or less in Wisdom in BG1
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Wisdom does nothing for Rangers in BG. You can pump it up to over 20 with the manuals you get in game but you never gain additional spell slots like Clerics/Druids.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    According to the AD&D Player's Handbook:

    A ranger can learn priest spells, but only those of the plant or animal spheres, when he reaches 8th level. He gains and uses his spells according to the rules given for priests. He does not gain bonus spells for a high Wisdom score, nor is he ever able to use priest scrolls or magical items unless specially noted otherwise.
  • AkerhonAkerhon Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 614
    Good! :)
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    That certainly explains why I couldn't get extra spells for my Ranger. Made me sad when I reached level 8 and only got one spell slot.
  • AkerhonAkerhon Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 614
    edited June 2012
    I think that CHA for Sorcerer should determine only the power (CD) of spell and not a bonus number of spells per day (like istead for the Mage).
    Sorcerer should have more spells per day than a basic Mage but learn spells with a delay of 1 level compared to the Mage (I would do so)
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    There is no DC in AD&D.
  • AkerhonAkerhon Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 614
    There is no DC in AD&D.
    I know; was an example :D

  • SmeuuhSmeuuh Member Posts: 34
    edited August 2012
    IIRC, sorcerers were supposed to use charisma the same way sorcerers use intelligence, but this is not actually in the game. Please either implement charisma-based bonuses, or make it clear in the description that no stat is used.
    Post edited by Tanthalas on
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    I agree completely, this has always been one of the more puzziling bugs. Why should sorcerors require no casting stat?
  • DougPiranhaDougPiranha Member Posts: 50
    In 3e charisma affects only saving throw DC, and there is no such thing in BG. Intelligence only affects chance to learn spells and maximum spells known, and both of those can't be applied to sorcerer. IIRC, main stat limiting maximum spell level known was not implemented, that could be the only way to give a main stat to sorc.
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 622
    Intelligence effects Lore.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    This isn't a bug. There's a feature request asking for this though.
  • AntonAnton Member, Moderator, Mobile Tester Posts: 513
    Determine Sorcerer's spell number by Charisma
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    edited August 2012
    @Anton

    Thanks, tagging this for tomorrow.

    The similar threads have been merged.
    Post edited by Tanthalas on
  • SmeuuhSmeuuh Member Posts: 34
    Ah, sorry for the double post. Why not make the charisma simply determine the maximum number of spells, the way intelligence does for wizards? Then you'd get the same number of spells per day for wizard and sorcerer at a given value of int and cha, the only difference being that the wizard has access to more spells but has to plan ahead whereas the sorcerer must chose from a more limited pool without planning.
  • SilenceSilence Member Posts: 437
    I think it's unfortunate how the "mental" stats really modify the game experience so little. You can be a kick-ass wizard with an Int of 9, provided you ever successfully learn from a scroll (easily doable with an + int potion or item). If I'm not mistaken, didn't your stat score determine the maximum spell level you could learn even in 2nd edition? That rule doesn't seem to apply in this game as far as I've seen.

    I had hoped they would implement a + save bonus to mind-effecting magic in this game...did they? If not that's no. 1. on my feature request list. Boy would that really change some builds...and give people a reason to actually give WIS to Rangers.

    I think a Sorceror's performance should indeed be modified by Charisma in some way, but I'm not sure how. It's kind of dumb that their prime stat does nothing for them...come to think of it, no stat is required to play a Sorceror.



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