Super misuse of cameos resulting in major plotholes (spoiler)
Frost
Member Posts: 28
So the final boss is Belhifet, the main antagonist of the icewind dale series. An enemy that you face at around level 15-18 in that game. You are expecting me to believe that a level 8-9 noobie adventurer took down a powerful named devil on his home plane thus killing him permanently when you barely defeat him with a party of mid-high level adventurers in IWD.
And yes the two games are connected because they specifically reference Belhifet and the Crenshinibon incident in one of the cutscenes in siege of dragonspear. So the events here took place long after IWD happened. Yet here they make Belhifet into some kind of low level encounter which doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
The analogy equivalent of what happened here would be a beggar killing a dragon with a pebble. Because that's what it is. Gameplay-wise Belhifet can't even be hit by anything less than +3 weapons. What this means story-wise is that Belhifet is immune to anything but the most powerful of enchanted weaponry, which you can't even get up to this point. Yet the hero somehow kills him in the middle of his stronghold in Baator with what may as well be a plastic butter knife.
The entire crusade is actually pretty Lol because going by the existing lore, they would have been shredded as soon as they walked into Avernus, nevermind making it all the way to Belhifet. If people like halaster and the chosen of mystra who are all epic level characters couldn't stay in Avernus for long without either getting wrecked or being forced to retreat ie. the Elminster in hell series, then an army of low level conscripted soldiers are just going to fall over as soon as they enter the portal.
Secondly if my character were sooo strong to the point that I was able to defeat Belhifet in a direct confrontation like this then I am going to assume that its because I have hidden damage type modifiers as a half god bhaalspawn. Thus I am going to assume that because the available weapons in bg1 are all +2 or less, my hands therefore must be enchanted +3 vorpal god hands to bypass the damage reduction Belhifet SHOULD have had as a devil more powerful than a pitfiend. Therefore my character basically ripped Belhifet apart with his bare hands because what should have happened otherwise had the writing been any good and consistant at all, was that Belhifet should have one shot the hero the same way he one shots Caelar with a flamestrike in one of the possible cutscenes.
If the hero were so strong and was able to march into hell at level 8-9 and kill Belhifet within his own stronghold with his bare hands how did I get kidnapped later by a bunch of low level assassins hired by Irenicus in the middle of the woods?
Speaking from a storytelling point of view, if I could defeat Belhifet in a direct confrontation, that means I should be powerful enough to be able to defeat anything below cornugon level at any time no matter how tired I am. So some random assassins that set up a trap/ambush should still be a cakewalk even if my character were "tired" after running through the woods after being exiled from Baldur's gate.
In fact if my character could defeat belhifet that basically puts him on the level where he should be able to defeat Irenicus already as well. Some random mooks should fall over the moment I look in their general direction. This isn't even taking game stats into consideration. If you look at it from a story perspective mid to high level adventurers are basically superheroes. They literally won't die from things like getting their throat slit as depicted in novels, and can basically cleave down legions of lesser enemies if they wanted to. Things like low level traps and poison are also completely brushed aside because of their superior resistances or magic items. If the hero were as strong as these high level adventurers and he must be or how did he defeat Belhifet? then getting kidnapped by mooks is something that could never ever have happened.
My point is that throwing Belhifet into the game creates a massive plot hole. The character should NOT have been strong enough to defeat Belhifet. The hero is a low level adventurer whose biggest kill so far is Sarevok Ie. another low level human. He shouldn't be able to suddenly kill an Belhifet much less a pit fiend especially one that is sitting in his castle in hell.
However because he DID do so, then this establishes that the hero is in fact on par with many other high level adventurers, who are basically superhuman. It makes his capture at the end of the game by hired mooks make no sense at all. It is simply impossible and anyone who is considered high level should be able to cleave these people down no matter how tired they are, gameplaywise, and storywise.
For example if lets say grandmaster kane or gareth dragonsbane got a little tired because they ran through the woods too much do you seriously think that an ambush set up by low level hired mercenaries would even phase them? of course not. Has Everis Cale another relatively high level adventurer ever been brought down by some silly ambush by low level mooks? Nope. Then we have Elminster who killed some mid level named devils like Marane the Hungry while he was nearly dead, had only 1 arm left, and no spells left, while crawling around naked in Avernus, while getting his thoughts stolen by Nurgle at the same time.
Basically by using Belhifet as an mandatory encounter and having the hero win in a direct confrontation, the devs set the Hero's power level at a point much much higher than it should be. This makes the rest of the story where the hero gets captured and experimented on by Irenicus make no sense at all because by defeating Belhifet, storywise the hero should have been powerful enough to defeat these villains without any effort and as such he never should have been captured to begin with.
And yes the two games are connected because they specifically reference Belhifet and the Crenshinibon incident in one of the cutscenes in siege of dragonspear. So the events here took place long after IWD happened. Yet here they make Belhifet into some kind of low level encounter which doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
The analogy equivalent of what happened here would be a beggar killing a dragon with a pebble. Because that's what it is. Gameplay-wise Belhifet can't even be hit by anything less than +3 weapons. What this means story-wise is that Belhifet is immune to anything but the most powerful of enchanted weaponry, which you can't even get up to this point. Yet the hero somehow kills him in the middle of his stronghold in Baator with what may as well be a plastic butter knife.
The entire crusade is actually pretty Lol because going by the existing lore, they would have been shredded as soon as they walked into Avernus, nevermind making it all the way to Belhifet. If people like halaster and the chosen of mystra who are all epic level characters couldn't stay in Avernus for long without either getting wrecked or being forced to retreat ie. the Elminster in hell series, then an army of low level conscripted soldiers are just going to fall over as soon as they enter the portal.
Secondly if my character were sooo strong to the point that I was able to defeat Belhifet in a direct confrontation like this then I am going to assume that its because I have hidden damage type modifiers as a half god bhaalspawn. Thus I am going to assume that because the available weapons in bg1 are all +2 or less, my hands therefore must be enchanted +3 vorpal god hands to bypass the damage reduction Belhifet SHOULD have had as a devil more powerful than a pitfiend. Therefore my character basically ripped Belhifet apart with his bare hands because what should have happened otherwise had the writing been any good and consistant at all, was that Belhifet should have one shot the hero the same way he one shots Caelar with a flamestrike in one of the possible cutscenes.
If the hero were so strong and was able to march into hell at level 8-9 and kill Belhifet within his own stronghold with his bare hands how did I get kidnapped later by a bunch of low level assassins hired by Irenicus in the middle of the woods?
Speaking from a storytelling point of view, if I could defeat Belhifet in a direct confrontation, that means I should be powerful enough to be able to defeat anything below cornugon level at any time no matter how tired I am. So some random assassins that set up a trap/ambush should still be a cakewalk even if my character were "tired" after running through the woods after being exiled from Baldur's gate.
In fact if my character could defeat belhifet that basically puts him on the level where he should be able to defeat Irenicus already as well. Some random mooks should fall over the moment I look in their general direction. This isn't even taking game stats into consideration. If you look at it from a story perspective mid to high level adventurers are basically superheroes. They literally won't die from things like getting their throat slit as depicted in novels, and can basically cleave down legions of lesser enemies if they wanted to. Things like low level traps and poison are also completely brushed aside because of their superior resistances or magic items. If the hero were as strong as these high level adventurers and he must be or how did he defeat Belhifet? then getting kidnapped by mooks is something that could never ever have happened.
My point is that throwing Belhifet into the game creates a massive plot hole. The character should NOT have been strong enough to defeat Belhifet. The hero is a low level adventurer whose biggest kill so far is Sarevok Ie. another low level human. He shouldn't be able to suddenly kill an Belhifet much less a pit fiend especially one that is sitting in his castle in hell.
However because he DID do so, then this establishes that the hero is in fact on par with many other high level adventurers, who are basically superhuman. It makes his capture at the end of the game by hired mooks make no sense at all. It is simply impossible and anyone who is considered high level should be able to cleave these people down no matter how tired they are, gameplaywise, and storywise.
For example if lets say grandmaster kane or gareth dragonsbane got a little tired because they ran through the woods too much do you seriously think that an ambush set up by low level hired mercenaries would even phase them? of course not. Has Everis Cale another relatively high level adventurer ever been brought down by some silly ambush by low level mooks? Nope. Then we have Elminster who killed some mid level named devils like Marane the Hungry while he was nearly dead, had only 1 arm left, and no spells left, while crawling around naked in Avernus, while getting his thoughts stolen by Nurgle at the same time.
Basically by using Belhifet as an mandatory encounter and having the hero win in a direct confrontation, the devs set the Hero's power level at a point much much higher than it should be. This makes the rest of the story where the hero gets captured and experimented on by Irenicus make no sense at all because by defeating Belhifet, storywise the hero should have been powerful enough to defeat these villains without any effort and as such he never should have been captured to begin with.
Post edited by Frost on
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However going into hell to kill Belhifet at level 8 as a mandatory part of a linear storyline where you are only maybe slightly stronger from when you killed Sarevok doesn't make sense no matter how the devs try to spin it. Because Belhifet should be stronger than your average unnamed pitfiend/balor and those are all at least level 17. Everyone who went into that portal should have been killed by hordes and hordes of lesser demons and never made it to Belhifets tower at all.
And there's no linear progression. You're free to fight him whenever you want, or can. Agreed. But that has always been the case. I can kill a red dragon with a naked lvl9 sorcerer without taking a point of damage. That's not supposed to happen. You have to take these games with a bit of suspension of disbelief and enjoy it for what they are. They are not 100% faithful incarnations of DnD games, for better and worse.
Belhifet isn't a random devil. He is an established character with an established power level from a previous game. Killing Belhifet is in fact more weird than killing the avatar of Demogorgon at level 20 in the TOB time line which is when it actually happened lorewise not while you are level 14 during SOA in your particular run through of the game. It is more weird because the hero effectively killed something stronger than a pitfiend on its home plane while he is less than level 10 in an unavoidable, linear as in it happens at this very moment when you are a low level adventurer in the storyline not it could have happened later when you are level 20, and scripted, mandatory story event
Game mechanics =/= story telling though. the fact that they put Belhifet there as a mandatory kill objective at a set point in a linear storyline means that canonically your character had to kill a high level devil unlike the examples that you put out where the encounters could be avoided.
In BG2 you didn't HAVE to kill Demogorgon, or the red dragon. You had the choice of leaving peacefully which is probably what actually did happen if someone were to write a book.
When I argue this I argue it from a story telling perspective, game stats only serve to outline the general power level of each character. If Belhifet is a high level encounter in IWD then he cannot be a low level encounter here. If your character defeats Belhifet then it screws up the rest of the story line as per my above argument. Someone capable of taking down beings more powerful than a standard balor/pitfiend should not be able to be taken down by some low level mooks.
Also you've no idea who those "low level mooks" were. For all you know it was Cyrics chosen ones, who had figured out a way to get his enemy into trouble without Mystra and Kelemvor noticing.
Etc. There are lot of ways to explain everything.
A story is a story. I appreciate you attempting to bring Table top stats from your Second Edition DMG and your monster manual into Baldur's Gate: SoD written well over 20 years after the release of said DMG/Monster Manual, but unfortunately I can't agree.
I ran a campaign a couple years ago where a character by the name of Skarda (from the module "Skarda's Mirror") was actually a minion of the elemental evils (Introduced in another module I forget the name of, not from the "Temple of Elemental Evils") which was a level 10 module where you actually go into a demi-plane off the negative material plane and defeat the elemental evils.
I also ran a campaign once were I threw an ancient red dragon at a party of 7 over confident level 10's to attempt to kill them and had my ancient red dragon toasted due to some really lucky rolls and great pre-planning by the party. Does that make my campaign unbelievable? Maybe. Was it fun to play in? I think all 7 of my players would have told you hell yes.
Realistic and true to "cannon" is one thing. These games are not supposed to be an accurate representation of your DMG and Monster Manual from 2nd edition. They're a story...and with all good stories, they require you to embrace the world view of the story teller. Maybe you're too young for this, but you sound like the kind of guy that watched the matrix and said "OMG, That's such Bullshit, there's no way Nero could have dodged a bunch of bullets like that!"
OH, and BTW, if it makes you feel any better? The games were Vetted by WotC.
Don't get me wrong, you're more than free to not like the game because Bhelefet wasn't level 17 with an armor class of -10 like his stat block in a book told you it should be. Others are going to enjoy the fact that as a half god of the child of murder you delved into the first level of hell and defeated a greater devil (Demon? I keep forgetting which is which...I think devils are in hell and demons in abyss right?) as one of your accomplishments for the heroism of your character.
I'd argue both are pretty unbelievable since we're in a fantasy setting in a non-existent universe, but I will not deny you the right to your argument that the "realism" of the encounter is broken based upon the levels and skills of the PC's compared to what AD&D says they should have faced.
I personally appreciate the creativity of the story, but I also don't deny the lack of strict adherence to the AD&D manuals.
I'm guessing Drizzt Do'Urden's appearance in BG:EE bugs the living S**T out of you too?
A VERY specific example of a canon existing is the main character's party. We KNOW that it consists of jaheria, minsc, Imoen, Dyhenir, and Khalid. Because those were the people who were with you in Irenicus's dungeon. Before dragonspear came out and firmly established this as the "canon", would you have told me that this wasn't the "canon" party because your BG1 party looked different?
Everything that happened in SOA officially happens in SOA, everything that came out with TOB officially happened in TOB. By your logic if I used a hack to jump from Irenicus's dungeon to the throne of bhaal then everything in between didn't happen right? The original devs already established that x characters are this powerful. But then whoever wrote this game decided to disregard preexisting lore for the sake of cameos.
Pulling at what ifs doesn't mean anything. The relative power levels of all characters have already been set by the level caps and rate of xp gain throughout the game. I can prove that Caelar isn't very strong because In the game lore I beat her, so she can't have been stronger than me. And I can prove that my character "canonically" at this point isn't stronger than level 10 at the very most because you start bg2 at around that level, and you end bg1 at around level 8. Not to mention that the devs limited the xp gain so you know that you really aren't that much more powerful than the end of bg1. I can also say without a doubt that Belhifet was described as a "balor" yes I know balors are demons but that's what he was described as. and balors are at least level 17+. And in iwd you fight Belhifet at around 17. So I can conclude without a doubt that the devs fucked up when they decided that the hero was able to kill a balor equivalent at level 8-10.
I don't have to prove that something that didn't actually happen didn't actually happen. Saying that oh maybe Belhifet was already half dead during the encounter because he got punched by another demon earlier is just defending bad writing. Whether or not he was almost dead is moot because even if he were, and he isn't because he 1 shots Caelar in one of the possible cutscenes, the character wouldn't have been able to damage him through the damage reduction and magic resistance that he should have had as a balor / pitfiend class devil at level 8-10 with the equipment that a level 8-10 character should have.
I can't speak for everyone, buy I was thoroughly enthralled by that twist of the story. Thought it was brilliant. The fact that that very boss is a few level higher in another game isn't really worth sacrificing something like that for, imho.
They could have used another devil though. No idea why they felt compelled to make it that one in particular.
The "sacrifice" is that the screwed up the established lore by having the main antagonist of the icewind dale series who also was an important background character in icewind dale 2 permakilled in his home plane by a handful of low level adventurers.
my god its like people here don't understand the difference between gameplay mechanics / storytelling power level comparisons. Actually a good story should be consistant and not retcon power levels for "cameos". They could have just used a different devil and not broken anything. There IS such a thing as bad story telling and one sign of that is ignoring the established lore that came before.
If you start to question this, then everything unravels. For instance, how have your characters in plate not died from exhaustion, marching and fighting cross country in a metal suit? How are they not completely fried by the first lightning spell that hits their armour? How did they not die as soon as they went to Hell, a realm of fire, in the first place?
This is nitpicking what is actually a really beautiful and heartfelt weaving together of all the Infinity Engine mythos that I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.
Real world example, if you can only do basic arithmetic are you suddenly able to do advanced calculus? No you go through the order of progression and "level" up by learning the different maths in between till you can.
There was a plot hole. the sinister player behind the lady was Belhifet and by extension Herphernaan who suffered the fate of lets use something along the lines of your example, Frodo stabbing sauron and killin him.
Because I stated earlier that high level adventurers being super human is a thing. In the d&d settings character level is quantified in lore by your character being able to perform more and more superhuman feats. Like being able to survive near decapitation - which represents HP. Things like being burned by fire are problems that low level adventurers have. And yes I do question them marching the crusade into Avernus and I did mention it if you bothered reading my entire post.
If game mechanics doesn't matter, then you have no arguement. A group beat him in IWD, a group beat him in SoD. You've no real way of discerning their power level outside of game mechanics. No reliable way that isn't riddled with speculations and extrapolating anyway.
What i said doesn't matter is your characters in your personal play through in IWD being able to kill Belhifet at level 7 because you powergamed and abused game mechanics such as kiting or the cheat console. And so you argue that therefore the bhaalspawn must be able to kill him at level 7 as well in the lore. (BTW a level 7 mage in a novel would be about the equivalent of some newly minted wizard that just finished their apprenticeship. so you are basically arguing that a wizard or their fighter counterpart that just finished school are capable of taking out a balor/pitfiend equivalent lorewise)
Going through the journey of IWD you go from level 1-17+ by the time you actually face Belhifet. in the "canon" you don't kill him with a level 7 character. You would not even be past the vale of shadows at that point and are still fighting proper monsters for your relative power level. You kill him at level 17 after finishing your journey across icewind dale and surrounding areas. During which time your characters clearly became strong enough to kill things more powerful than an orc.
Again I said that what does NOT matter is if you decided to export those level 7 characters into a end game save file and were like HEY I CAN BEAT BELHIFET IWTH THESE LEVEL 7 FRESH OUTA FIGHTER SCHOOL EQUIVALENTS FOR CHARACTERS. BELHIFET CAN BE TAKEN DOWN BY LEVEL 7 ADVENTURERS IN DA LORE BECAUSE GAME MECHANICS!
Or another example would be -I traveled into the future into tob timeline and went into watchers keep at level 12 straight out of irenicus dungeon and ctrl-y demogorgon! I beat demogorgon so dis is wat happened in da lore because game mechanics! Then i come and post about my personal anecdotes while completely disregarding event timelines and power progression that are firmly established by ingame lore, gameplay xp progression, and expansion pack exclusive content/release dates that clearly establishes when certain areas actually opened up in the storyline and disagree with you on the forums even though all my arguments revolve around what happened in MY game rather than from the perspective of established lore!
^ this is what you sound like to me
Next up-
Caelar's "tankiness" can be explained very simply. She is a plot device character with extra boosted stats so that she survives her redemption dialogue. She gets 1 shot by Belhifet's fire attack when her plot demanded that she die. Every other scenario involved gameplay mechanics that doesn't properly quantify her power. Thus her power must be extrapolated from the transitive property. You beat Belhifet who is capable of knocking Caelar back 10 feet then kills her with 1 attack during the dialogue sequence when she tries to attack him again. Therefore Hero>Belhifet > Caelar.
To really beat my point in the kind of game mechanics you keep spouting has no bearing on lore discussions. For example-
If I were playing a different game and my character were level 50 and I had an escort quest where the npc were some low level invulnerable farmer and can't die during the escort mission, does that make him immortal in the lore? Does it mean that he is stronger than my character because he can tank whatever attacks him without taking lethal damage? If i kited some kinda dragon over that is slated at lets say level 300 and it aggroed onto the invulnerable farmer and the farmer eventually kills it does that mean the farmer is actually that strong from a story point of view in comparison to the main character because gameplay mechanics allowed him to kill a dragon? Based on your logic we can "extrapolate" that the farmer actually has the power of someone who is at least level 500 and is invulnerable and this must be canon in the lore seeing as how he slayed the dragon without taking any damage despite the fact that all other material point to him just being a simple farmer. Does this make any sense at all to you? Hells no so use your brain when you try to bring completely irrelevant "gameplay mechanics" into a lore discussion.
Character levels are used to quantify the relative power levels of characters in the lore and what they should and shouldn't be able to do. However levels along with gameplay mechanics like having hard to kill or unkillable NPCs for gameplay purposes do not supersede lore that is established in cutscenes/written material or outright stated facts, preexisting lore, and logical comparisons based upon what is stated to be possible.
Theres all kinds of legends in the games like some scrub halfling farmer getting lucky and killing a giant or a dragon by getting a lucky shot with his sling. That halfling farmer probably wasn't a level 30 Fighter with 5 points in Slings and a +4 weapon. Its ok though because everyone can understand that he was lucky or the Gods blessed his throw or whatever.
Hp is real in a sense also otherwise people like Gwydion the quick a human during the time of troubles wouldn't have survived having his head nearly sliced off while protecting the keeper of the Crynishiad whereas a normal man would have.
These are all high level characters. And lets remember, high level in d&d fantasy = superhuman
The hero clearly ran into that portal confident that he could deal with whatever he encountered despite the fact that the most powerful thing he fought up to this point are Sarevok, ogres and lesser wizards. Nothing out of the ordinary for his current "skill level". Maybe that single mindflayer is possible too if you count dragonspear. then he goes and kills a pitfiend equivalent out of nowhere with low level barely enchanted equipment. I mean check it out drizzt who is level 16-17? in second edition. He had problems killing a single balor and would have died horribly if he didn't have a plot device weapon.. Like I said you seriously cannot expect me to believe that a level 9 character could have defeated a pitfiend/balor equivalent. The difference in power is more than a Halfling farmer killing a giant if he were lucky its more like he killed a solar with his unenchanted sling which somehow penetrated her natural immunities.
You didn't even awaken to your bhaalspawn powers until after the events of BG2. In fact it was mentioned by Irenicus that up until the bridge incident in dragonspear your connection to bhaal's blood was tenuous at best.
The power of a literal god, had yet to manifest and honestly ..played very little part in events up to this point. Besides it seems like the whole point of the BG1 story was that you survived the assassination attempt by Sarevok mostly due to your friends, your ability to make new friends, and whats left of gorion's influence. Then you slowly gained enough strength to stand on your own.
Suddenly being able to confidently walk into hell then kill a balor/pitfiend equivalent is stretching what should be possible beyond the breaking point at this point in the story. I mean seriously look at the dialogue options when he was talking to Belhifet. like 1/3 of those options were totally snarky and basically yea I can totally beat you type dialogue. There was nothing that showed you had any doubts about your chances of winning. Even though you had faced nothing that even comes close to the power of a pitfiend before this.
To put it into perspective Not even the chosen of mystra can just walk into hell specifically Avernus the same level of hell that the dragonspear portal goes to and walk around with no consequence. Halastar got wrecked, the Symbul fared better but she still had to retreat, Mystra the goddess herself had to retreat. If level 24+ characters and a greater deity can't waltz into hell to kill what should be the approximate equivalent of Belhifet (nurgle) then a level 9 character sure as hell can't
And bhaalspawn is no ordinary adventurer, storywise it is okay to say the bhaalspawn could defeat Belhifet at lvl 10, because well, he carries the blood of a god.
I already explained why his bhaalspawn heritage played no factor. read up
"You didn't even awaken to your bhaalspawn powers until after the events of BG2. In fact it was mentioned by Irenicus that up until the bridge incident in dragonspear your connection to bhaal's blood was tenuous at best.
The power of a literal god, had yet to manifest and honestly ..played very little part in events up to this point. "
Also if you actually had access to your god powers then irenicus wouldn't have spent so much effort to make you manifest them. Simply put during the events of BG1 the hero was basically an ordinary human who had access to several minor spell like abilities.
BG2 explained how bhaalspawn powers worked. Those with less essence were just ordinary humans who were prone to murder. Those who were powerful and laid claim to more essence had anything ranging from augmented stats to special abilities like teleporting away when in danger. The Heroe's abilities besides those daily special spells was the slayer form and planar cocoon. Obviously the daily spells were of no consequence, and you had no access to the other two abilities until SOA and TOB. Until then you were basically in the category of ordinary human who was prone to murder.
Why do you have to be so condescending in your response? And you're a BGEE team member? The guy has a very detailed post and you respond with "Maybe you're too young for this"
Very disappointing.