new Canon team?

SamuelVarg

Will it be possible to create a new Canon team? According to BG II it was, Imoen, Minsc, Dynaheir, Khalid and Jaheira (don't remember the spelling of all names) who was with the PC in the end of BG.
Will it be possible to have Neera and Raasad with your PC in BG II - EE this time?

jolly_bb

Or Edwin and Viconia for that matter :P ?

SamuelVarg

I think it is hard to create to many possible outcome but it would be cool if you could create at least one more "good canon team" and one "evil canon team".

jolly_bb

Evil canon team would render the whole BG2 starting story unfeasible -> Two starting sequences would be needed (good/evil).
A nice to have thing though. Not gonna happen probably.

HaHaCharade

Yeah... its just hard to do... I kind of wish they'd just put your main character in a cell by himself, but I guess that wouldn't have worked either

Roller12

The canon team will stay the same. It isnt canon because these guys reappeared in bg2. It is canon because these guys were the first to join, so most people went with them. Consider this. You+imoen, Morty+xzar join, khalid and jaheira join. Party full. Arrive in Nashkel. Morty and Xzar killed(come to blows with jaheira) or kicked out. Minsc taken, Dynaheir forced to be recruited. Party full. Bye bye other NPCs. Game complete.

Dee

I've said this before in other threads, but there's another very important reason why the BG2 starting party can't be changed:

Every single one of those original NPCs has a character arc that is influenced directly by the fact that they've been tortured and locked in cells in Irenicus's dungeon. Each of those characters has lost someone or something that they can't get back, which has a profound, life-altering effect on their personality and actions.

If you changed it so that these characters were not in Chateau Irenicus, it completely alters their expected behavior throughout the rest of the game. Suddenly Jaheira isn't the sad, brooding widow.

...Actually, that's probably the biggest change overall. But the reverse also happens to any NPCs that you do bring with you into the dungeon. Do you think Edwin, Viconia, and Xzar would be the same after being captured and tortured by Irenicus? I'll grant you that it would be extremely interesting to watch Edwin transform this way, but the scope of the change isn't as minor as a lot of people seem to think it is.

SamuelVarg

I think that it could be ways to work around that. Like Neera could be the one to die and Rasaad swears revange or what ever.

But I think the possible variations are to large to adress.

But it would be cool!

SamuelVarg

But they could put back Rasaad and Neera in BG II in other ways like many other characters reappear later in the game.

Dee

I believe that's the intention, @SamuelVarg. It's been more or less confirmed that the new NPCs will also be in BG2.

They might even join you in that first dungeon (in addition to Jaheira, Minsc, and Imoen), for all we know.

Why Dorn would be traveling with Neera and Rasaad, I don't know.

sandmanCCL

We certainly have a lot of theory and conjecture on the future BG2:EE considering BG1:EE might get stuck in development hell.

Dee

Thank you, @sandmanCCL, for throwing a wet blanket over this thread's optimism. :P

sandmanCCL

I'm just saying, I think some topics that we talk about endlessly on the forums take a couple extra leaps beyond the reasonable.

What's the male version of Debbie Downer? I'm totally that.

Raistlin82

I abhor the idea of a "canon" team.
Because what's the point of having multiple choices if, in the end, only one is the "right" one?

I wish there was more consistency between BG1 and BG2 playthrough, and it has been requested over and over and over (and over). Somebody on the forum said that Trent said (yeah... not even a direct quote, so take what I say with a pinch of salt) that the best they can do is to add a stand-alone adventure (DLC?) that connects the BG1 ending to the BG2 beginning, explaining how you ended up there, with those people. Fingers crossed.

However, even if that's the case, it appears that there is no escaping the "canon" team.

Heh... might as well force me to make a human male fighter and call him Abdel Adrian.

theJoshFrost

If a semi-remake of a 1997 game that was essentially 80% bug fixes and 20% new content got stuck in development hell, how in the world has the human race been able to accomplish ANYTHING?

Rexfaroensis

Aosaw said:

I've said this before in other threads, but there's another very important reason why the BG2 starting party can't be changed:

Every single one of those original NPCs has a character arc that is influenced directly by the fact that they've been tortured and locked in cells in Irenicus's dungeon. Each of those characters has lost someone or something that they can't get back, which has a profound, life-altering effect on their personality and actions.

If you changed it so that these characters were not in Chateau Irenicus, it completely alters their expected behavior throughout the rest of the game. Suddenly Jaheira isn't the sad, brooding widow.

...Actually, that's probably the biggest change overall. But the reverse also happens to any NPCs that you do bring with you into the dungeon. Do you think Edwin, Viconia, and Xzar would be the same after being captured and tortured by Irenicus? I'll grant you that it would be extremely interesting to watch Edwin transform this way, but the scope of the change isn't as minor as a lot of people seem to think it is.

If that's the case, rewrite dialogue! I can see that it is a massive amount of work, but it's technically not impossible. Legally, however, is more difficult, for as I understand it, they don't have creative licence to change existing content. Maybe that's only an issue with BG:EE and not BG2:EE, I can't be sure, but I'd expect the same legal do's and don'ts for both versions..

To add to that; I reckon a fair amount of players would get cross if they decided to change the dialogue etc. for some of the most integral NPC's of the franchise. Personally, it wouldn't bother me that much; just as long as they didn't completely change them.

neleothesze

Raistlin82 said:

I abhor the idea of a "canon" team.
Because what's the point of having multiple choices if, in the end, only one is the "right" one?

I wish there was more consistency between BG1 and BG2 playthrough, and it has been requested over and over and over (and over). Somebody on the forum said that Trent said (yeah... not even a direct quote, so take what I say with a pinch of salt) that the best they can do is to add a stand-alone adventure (DLC?) that connects the BG1 ending to the BG2 beginning, explaining how you ended up there, with those people. Fingers crossed.

However, even if that's the case, it appears that there is no escaping the "canon" team.

Heh... might as well force me to make a human male fighter and call him Abdel Adrian.

@Raistlin82
Ethereal Voice: Greetings Commander Adrian!
PC: You've got the wrong person, I'm not a commander and my name isn't Adrian.
Ethereal Voice: Sorry Adrian Hawke, we're here...
PC: My name is Fizzlebuttocks, Grubbytoes Fizzlebuttocks!
Ethereal Voice: You're confused young man, it says here your name is Adrian, young human, 20 years of age, awaiting his best friend Imoen.
Fizzlebuttocks: Imoen? I hate that girl, she's always filching my parchments and can't you see I'm here at your kneecap? Stop talking to the air above my head! I'm a gnome!
Ethereal Voice: *confused* Well... err... Mr. Fizzlebuttocks... there must be some mistake... are you a fighter at least?
Fizzlebuttocks: I'm an illusionist, notice the robes and staff, sheesh!
Ethereal Voice: Illusionist, eh? Good, good. Here's a picture of what you look like, young man. Please cast a spell and make yourself look like this.. and for god's sake, stop answering to that silly name or no one will take US seriously! (aside: PCs these days, they think they know everything!)

There, character creation mattered. There will be a special sequence for every race/class combo and in the end EVERYONE becomes Abdel Adrian. (only in a less weird way than Being John Malkovich... ...or not... here's a thought XD)

Lemernis

The question of just how Neera, Rasaad and Dorn will be integrated into BG2:EE is a good one.

I would imagine they'll probably be placed somewhere in Athkatla, as was done with other BG1 NPcs (although only Viconia and Edwin are currently joinable).

If the three new NPCs are added to Irenicus' dungeon then that would be a band of seven adventurers that are ambushed and abducted, not the six that the BG1 story ends with. Not that that discrepancy is all that big a big deal, though, really.

IIRC, the game doesn't state that the PC adventured with Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc, and Dynaheir. I think it just assumes that CHARNAME has at least met them during his or her previous adventure. I.e., it's left vague, isn't it?

Anyway, the easiest thing for the devs to do is just salt the three new NPCs elsewhere in the game to be picked up, preferably right in Athkatla, as Edwin and Viconia are.

The dialogue for the intro should be rewritten to better reflect that the PC might not have had an adventuring relationship with any of them. (The PC would know Imoen from Candlekeep, but might have parted ways with her right outside the gate at the start of BG1.)

Xavioria

When I read this entire thing again I thought of the end movie with Sarevok's death. It leads to a chamber where all the bhaalspawn are recorded as statues that mirror the child as they are. I like to think that all of those are the PCs of the world that play this game

And that they'll die...

Mortianna

Roller12 said:

The canon team will stay the same. It isnt canon because these guys reappeared in bg2. It is canon because these guys were the first to join, so most people went with them. Consider this. You+imoen, Morty+xzar join, khalid and jaheira join. Party full. Arrive in Nashkel. Morty and Xzar killed(come to blows with jaheira) or kicked out. Minsc taken, Dynaheir forced to be recruited. Party full. Bye bye other NPCs. Game complete.

Has anyone ever seen both Montaron and Xzar win against Jaheira and Khalid?

Lemernis

@Mortianna I guess the beginning of BG2 can't cover every possible outcome from BG1.

Those who take Edwin into the party kill Dynaheir and Minsc, for example.

Not to mention that any of the canon NPCs might get killed in the course of adventuring, and might not be resurrected.

The dialogues at the very beginning in Irenicus' dungeon should be rewritten to reflect a greater number of possibilities for what occurred in the previous game.

Debaser

Aosaw said:

I've said this before in other threads, but there's another very important reason why the BG2 starting party can't be changed:

Every single one of those original NPCs has a character arc that is influenced directly by the fact that they've been tortured and locked in cells in Irenicus's dungeon. Each of those characters has lost someone or something that they can't get back, which has a profound, life-altering effect on their personality and actions.

If you changed it so that these characters were not in Chateau Irenicus, it completely alters their expected behavior throughout the rest of the game. Suddenly Jaheira isn't the sad, brooding widow.

...Actually, that's probably the biggest change overall. But the reverse also happens to any NPCs that you do bring with you into the dungeon. Do you think Edwin, Viconia, and Xzar would be the same after being captured and tortured by Irenicus? I'll grant you that it would be extremely interesting to watch Edwin transform this way, but the scope of the change isn't as minor as a lot of people seem to think it is.

@Aosaw This is why I wish there were alternate story arcs for these characters, so you could start with the people you used in BG1 who are still around, and the replay value would increase with more story. The real limitation is weather or not they can get Black Isle to agree to more voice acting in these advents.

I know people worry about inconsistencies with audio, but I'm a professional mastering engineer in my life not on this board. I know you can do many tricky things to blend sounds and match them. All you would need are the actors and a little bit of technical info on how the first recordings were made. As well as the original sound files. And you would be able to do wonders very fast with the same cast in the right mastering facility for ADR work.

Dee

It's largely a question of budget and contract. If they had unlimited funds and time, I'd be right there with you. Maybe for BG3 they can work that in from the start.

kamuizin

Well maybe it's possible to be done, but surely no NPC that exist in BG and BG II can be used in the starting dungeon.

Team BG at first would need a permission to use BG NPCs in BGII, provided they got it, the best way to use the permission with the minimum change on the original content would be:

First of all if you choose edwin, viconia, Xzar, Ajantis, Garrick, Faldorn, Safana, Coran, Quayle, Tiax, or any other NPC from BG that's officially used in BGII, a real good excuse must exist to take them out of your party before you're captured for Irenicus, so those ones here would not be in Irenicus Dungeon (and taking off Edwin and Viconia, the others should not be eligible to be played).

Any BG exclusive NPC used in this idea shoud be locked into a new part of irenicus Dungeon (provided that Team BG can add ground into an existing map) or in another AR yet inside Irenicus Dungeon. In this Area main char should find the BG only NPCs that where in the party when the game ended.

I believe that not every BG only NPC should be able to change to BGII and in case of Eldoth/Skie, one of them should die to give spice for the game, eldoth in my opinion, as Skie is a last time NPC found in BG at near the end of the game, a daughter of an important man that can bring new quests in the game, Naive and in need of experience that could be worked in BG II and after all... a "Pure Neutral Thief".

If i could use BG characters in BG II, i would probally feel better in only get alora or skie in chapter 6 for example.

Xavioria

Honestly... Defeating Sarevok, which every NPC joins to help you do anyways, is enough reason for party members to part ways IMO. Why stay with a PC when it isn't really profitable anymore in the sense of either, Glory, Money, or Sport? I can see why the Canon IS Canon, the only issue is that, of course the same name as this thread, why can't there be a neutral and evil canon?

I love the story but I always feel compelled to bring along Jaheira and Khalid as well as Minsc and Dynaheir. When I don't, and I carry over to BG2, my OCD kicks in and it REALLY really bothers me, because the story I'M writing about MY adventure starts to not really make any sense.

I say to CREATE the reason for certain Neutral or Evil NPCs to stay with the PC to the beginning of BG2. If Beamdog cannot do that, then I say... IDK, I love these games, and it's not THAT big of a deal, but better continuity in terms of alignment should be taken into account.

kamuizin

Not every NPC from BG must be eligible to be in BG II but the main reason for opitional canon parties is the lack of coherence between the games. I finsh a BG game with a pure evil party composed of Edwin, Viconia, Shar-Teel, Kagain and... Safana (hells, even in BG there's no evil Thief besides montarion that force Xzar on the party), then i go to BG II and i start with 7 rep points (if chaotic evil), minsc and Jaheira... a little out of sense.

Make a end movie explaining why Minsc and Jaheira are in Irenicus Dungeon and why my BG party isn't there and i will be happy, if not a optional canon party will bring coherence.

Dee

I'd do with some expanded dialogue from Imoen explaining to the protagonist just why Edwin, Xzar, Montaron, Safana, and everyone else just happened to ditch you right before you were captured.

But again, that's a ton of extra dialogue, when it would probably be a lot simpler just to have something in a prologue that says, "Your companions have gone their separate ways, and you have met with Jaheira and Khalid to discuss your exploits. Minsc and Dynaheir have also joined you for the time-being as you make your way south towards Amn..."

Simple, succinct, and it puts all the major players where they need to be.

MilesBeyond

Yeah I guess the whole string-quartet approach gets a little old after a few centuries, eh?

kamuizin

Nice to be done... except by the fact that taking edwin in the party means that i killed Dynaheir, this link between BG-BG II will give the devs some trouble to be done well... that's for sure.

Lemernis

There should be a way to rewrite the opening dialogues to account for having played other options than Imoen, Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc, and Dynaheir having adventured with you. That's a change to original content that I would think Beamdog's partners might agree to.

Wolk

There is also a simpler idea, a new optionnal adventure: in baldur's gate city, you won over sarevok it is now dark outside(rest option is unavaible) everything is closed,but you get a hint that there is a fest going on in one of the city's tavern, and your party disbands because they have other stuff to do(like getting drunk in that particular tavern), the same goes for the Canon team(Jaheira has harper stuff, Dynaheir witch stuff, Khalid and Minsk bootlicking stuff and Imoen will cry as she usualy does)

Chername then goes in the tavern, some of the NPCs are there enjoying their time, a barmaid offers him a drink and insists that he takes it. If you refuse, she gets pissed off and casts a spell on you, whatever happens, the spell or the drink, you fall unconcious. You then wake up in a crypt somewhere in the city, the barmaid comes and tell's him that you will stay there until her uncle's mistress comes to get you.

she comes back a couple days latter, tells you that the escort is almost in BG, but when she gets out of the room, a berserked Minsk chops her head off. You then get rescued by the CANON TEAM!!!! You ask them why they are here, they tell different stuff each (jaheira because you are gorions ward, imoen childhood frien Dynaheir is looking for alaundo's bhaal spawn Khalid and minsk are just following Jaheira and Dynaheir) there is also an dialog option fot them to be dead, they will each find an excuse: khalid was affraid and faked death, jaheira got raised by her harper friends, imoen got raised by jaheira because jaheira found her dead while looking for you and she knew she was your friend (even if they never met, gorion sent her a picture of you and imoen or some other stuff like that) dynaheir got helped by minsk, and minsk.... he got helped by Boo!

they are all geared up with cool magic items (doesn't matter, thwy will lose it soon enough) and you proceed to get out, (they got in with a now blocked entrance or got teleported here by elminster) You fight a couple of undead and stuff, you find a couple of humanoids, and they are all super loyal to the "uncle", you enter a room that looks like a bedroom but it's not a bed, it's a coffin, and in it you find letters between "uncle" and B. ,his mistress (guess who) and it says that finaly it wont be he but her "brother" that will come and get the prisoners. you keep fighting, until you find another room, in wich they is a human girl on a bed pleading for uncle to suck her blood once again.

you then near th exit and meet "uncle" gues what....HE IS A VAMPIRE!!!! dialog about his mistress brother aproaching, you then end up killing him! his mist forms goes back in it's coffin Dynaheir asks minsk to break a chair leg and sharpen it, he does so and you now have a stake you can either go kill the vampire or get out, but the door needs a key. you then kill the vampire and get the key he had. you get out, a little normal city house with a couple of guards, you can talk your way out, or kill them. you get out, jaheira urges you to flee the city, wich is about your only option, because a mad gnome set fire to a building using world domination as a pretext so the roads are now blocked and you can only get out of the city. you get out, get attacked, khalid gets hurt, Dynaheir gets killed and all the living people go in prison. SoA then commences!

I know it is not the best thing, but it is a small adventure connecting the two games without changing either of them, give me your opinion about it, and try making one on your own