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[Item] Ankheg Armor usable by Druids (bug or no?)

sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
edited February 2013 in Fixed
image

Current Behavior: Druids can equip Ankheg Armor, including Avengers who are supposedly unable to equip anything heavier than leather armor (confirmed in BG2 and BGtutu)

Expected Behavior: Druids of any kind cannot equip Ankheg Armor unless they are also multi/dual-classed with Fighter, OR item description claiming Druids are barred from equipping the armor should be removed.

Post edited by Balquo on
Grieg
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Comments

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Hmm, aren't Druids supposed to be allowed to wear non-metallic armors? The fix might be to just change the text.

    @AndreaColombo?

    ArchaosAedandieterderblau
  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    It's in error either way. Maybe I should have put the capital "OR" in bold.

  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    edited September 2012
    Considering Clerics can wear plate, I guess this isn't overpowered if it comes to be that they are allowed to wear it.

    I know it's part of the game but I've always found this armor quest to result in a very overpowered piece of armor, for the level.

  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Would be best to just change the text I think

  • Metal_HurlantMetal_Hurlant Member Posts: 324
    Tanthalas said:

    Hmm, aren't Druids supposed to be allowed to wear non-metallic armors? The fix might be to just change the text.

    @AndreaColombo?

    I believe the text should be changed. Druids should be allowed to wear this as a 'natural' armor according to the 2nd ed Complete Druid's Handbook.

    Archaosdieterderblau
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,394
    My understanding for druids and metal armor was that they opposed the damage that forges did to the landscape, or some other disingenuous 2e excuse. In BG2 druids can use it (and the dragon armors) without restriction.

    Brude
  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    I just checked as part of discovering this Ankheg thing, @Demivrgvs. Druids can wear Red Dragon Scale. Even Avengers can, despite RDS being a full plate armor and they shouldn't be able to use heavier than Leather. Ashen Scale +2, they cannot but that has in it's description something about it being a chain mail modified with wyvern scales (so it'd still be forged-built or metal).

    Lots of inconsistencies. Red Dragon Scale is usable, but Blue Dragon scale is not. RDS is usable by Avengers despite being Full Plate by item type, but White Dragon Scale is not usable by Avengers because it is Studded Leather by item type.

    It's bizarre and wildly inconsistent. But that's all BG2/ToB stuff so we can worry about that down the road.

  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,326
    The "(Not) Usable by:" header was removed from the English text in anticipation of the information being provided via GUI code. Hence, the description doesn't need any tweaking in this regard. If the armor is not usable by druids, a fix is in order which falls beyond the scope of what I'm doing :)

    sandmanCCL
  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    edited September 2012

    The "(Not) Usable by:" header was removed from the English text in anticipation of the information being provided via GUI code.

    Whoa, what @AndreaColombo? The GUI is now going to dynamically determine the "usable" text for items? I mean, I guess that's pretty cool, but we really should let modders know about that since it will result in duplicate (and possibly erroneous) item usability texts.

    Edit: oh and for the record, one of the few times I agree with Demivrgvs (:P) - yes, druids should be able to wear this, as they are already, so it is just a textual inaccuracy.

    Demivrgvs
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    Just one thing - how heavy are Ankheg Plate, Dragon Armors and Leather armors?

    I mean, the Avenger description does say "heavier" so everything that goes over the weight of the standard Leather Armor should be not usable? I dunno, just thinking out loud here XD

  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    edited September 2012
    @Cheesebelly - I think "heavier" in the original post isn't so much a weight thing as meaning "better" (at least according to the kit descriptions i.e. http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/kits.php#3). That is a subjective term though... Since BG1 did not have kits (or avengers technically), I suppose it is up for debate whether avengers should be able to wear the holy ankheg? I am currently agnostic on such a debate, but let the debate begin (if it hasn't already).

    Edit: after careful 2-minute consideration (and DLTCEPing :P) - avengers *can* wear ankheg armor in BG2, but shapeshifters can't; however, avengers cannot wear studded leather. I would interpret that as they can't wear metal, and the ankheg armor presumably is not metal. I'm good with that I think... anyone else not?

    Brude
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    Well, Avengers are overall powerful during mid-low levels. On high levels, there's not much making favors for them - removing the ability to wear animal armors would make them unbalanced in the long run.

    Question is though - is not being able to wear Studded Leather armors ALONE that much of a drawback? I mean, -2 to Con and Str is important, but in the end, they can still get max health from it.

  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389

    Well, Avengers are overall powerful during mid-low levels. On high levels, there's not much making favors for them - removing the ability to wear animal armors would make them unbalanced in the long run.

    Question is though - is not being able to wear Studded Leather armors ALONE that much of a drawback? I mean, -2 to Con and Str is important, but in the end, they can still get max health from it.

    For BG1, not really. The best leather armor is just as good as the best studded leather. There's a +3 Leather armor at the end of Durlag's Tower, and I forget exactly where but there's a +2 Studded Leather somewheres in the game.

    In BG2 it's a fairly pronounced drawback for quite some time. There's a lot of leather armors that count as Studded they can't use. Luckily they can still use Red Dragon Plate for whatever reason, or you could go with something slightly more kosher in Shadow Dragon Scale (because at least that counts as just regular leather per game code.) End game, not a big thing. Early game, hurts a lot.

    I'd also like to submit that it's really not that big a drawback in BG1 even if they can't use Ankheg Armor. I believe a level 10 druid casting Barkskin gives AC4. Even naked, drop a cloak/ring of protection +2 and you're only a single AC behind someone in Ankheg armor. In fact, you'd have better AC while shapeshifted if you did that, as animal forms don't factor in AC from armor.

  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,326
    @Miloch - The GUI does not provide any information concerning items' usability yet. Proving the information via GUI code is on the devs' to-do list, which is why Dave removed the "(Not) Usable by:" header from items' descripitons in the first place. Currently there is no ETA for this feature that I know of, and most translators decided to keep the header in their translations until the feature is released.

    Someone (I think @Avenger_teambg) suggested that "weight" could be added via GUI code as well, and I'd agree. Right now, several items are missing an indication of their weight. I've added it to some and plan on adding it to every item that has a weight in the long run, but it's gonna be a fairly big amount of work.

  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315

    @Miloch - The GUI does not provide any information concerning items' usability yet. Proving the information via GUI code is on the devs' to-do list, which is why Dave removed the "(Not) Usable by:" header from items' descripitons in the first place. Currently there is no ETA for this feature that I know of, and most translators decided to keep the header in their translations until the feature is released.

    Someone (I think @Avenger_teambg) suggested that "weight" could be added via GUI code as well, and I'd agree. Right now, several items are missing an indication of their weight. I've added it to some and plan on adding it to every item that has a weight in the long run, but it's gonna be a fairly big amount of work.

    Wow, just wow. As Miloch says it's something which any item-related mod would have to deal with to avoid the "duplicate description" compatibility issue, but I think in the long run it would be really cool.

    Regarding Avenger's armor limitations, I think the "May not wear better than leather armor" part implies he cannot use 'better' armors, such as medium and heavy armors, regardless of the armor's material imo. Not to mention the whole "cannot use stutted leather but can use a plate armor" would really make no sense. It pratically is the only drawback/hindrance, but if you allow the kit to use Ankheg Plate (or Dragon Armors in BG2) then it's not a drawback anymore.

    P.S @Miloch LOL. ;)

  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    reason for Shapeshifter's armor restriction - they change shape
    reason for Avenger's armor restriction - weight/metal

    So I think the ankheg is ok

    Weight display would be beneficial even for item weight mods - they don't have to care about language stuff. There is some incompatibility, but that isn't significant. You just have to skip modifying the tlk.

  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863

    Someone (I think @Avenger_teambg) suggested that "weight" could be added via GUI code as well, and I'd agree. Right now, several items are missing an indication of their weight. I've added it to some and plan on adding it to every item that has a weight in the long run, but it's gonna be a fairly big amount of work.

    Baldurdash and/or the BG1 GTU already did this. Not sure if it's necessary for *all* items with weights but I guess it doesn't hurt. Makes sense to do it via GUI though if they're already planning that for usability.

  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389

    reason for Shapeshifter's armor restriction - they change shape

    Because turning into a bear or a spider doesn't change your shape at all. ;)

    reason for Avenger's armor restriction - weight/metal

    But that's the reason for NORMAL druid restrictions, I thought. It seemed to me Avengers adhered to a different rule.

  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    edited September 2012

    reason for Shapeshifter's armor restriction - they change shape
    reason for Avenger's armor restriction - weight/metal

    So I think the ankheg is ok

    @Avenger_teambg no offense but your reasoning make very little sense. Druids "change shape" too and can wear heavy armors, and vanilla Avengers have even more shapeshift abilities! Following your logic Avengers shouldn't wear armors at all. :D

    Balance wise, the Avenger really shouldn't be able to wear the best druid armors, and even vanilla descriptions clearly implies that imo.

  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    Normal druids can wear studded leather; avengers can't. But avengers can wear armor made just from animals (leather armor) so it stands to reason they can wear any non-metallic armor.

    For the record though, in BG2 they can wear ankheg plate which weighs 25 but not white dragon scale which weighs 15. Seems like a bug with the latter since normal and totemic druids can wear it. Also no druids can wear blue dragon plate which weighs 20, but all druids except shapeshifters can wear red dragon plate which weighs 30. So another bug with the blue dragon plate I think.

  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    Interesting, in my ToB red/blue dragon plates are wearable by the Avenger druid.
    White dragon scales not.

  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    Where is written that Avengers can wear medium and heavy armor as long as "made just from animal"? I cannot find any mention of it anywhere (and PnP doesn't help either considering BG Avenger has nothing in common with AD&D one).

    Description says: "May not wear better than leather armor". Is it not a clear evidence they are not supposed to wear armors BETTER than leather armor?

    @Miloch back to our old quarrels, we don't agree as usual. :D

    Brude
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    edited September 2012
    *cough*

    Its possible that Avengers may experience problems when trying to wear Ankheg plate. Just felt like throwing that into the discussion.

    Carry on.

  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    edited September 2012

    Interesting, in my ToB red/blue dragon plates are wearable by the Avenger druid.
    White dragon scales not.

    @Avenger_teambg - I do not have the Fixpack installed so it's possible it changed that. Interesting it changed the heaviest dragonscale armors (based on plate) but not the lighter one (based on splint mail).

    @Demivrgvs - no, we're not :P. I've had enough bickering on previous forums (and it seems this one is no different). I'm just telling you what's in the unmodded game and drawing some inferences from it. Edit: the only thing really relevant to BG1 is the ankheg armor, but since there were no avengers in BG1, we have to draw inferences based on what's in BG2.

  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    edited September 2012
    Miloch said:

    @Demivrgvs I'm just telling you what's in the unmodded game and drawing some inferences from it. Edit: the only thing really relevant to BG1 is the ankheg armor, but since there were no avengers in BG1, we have to draw inferences based on what's in BG2.

    @Miloch So, if they erroneously made a couple of armors available to Avenger (and vanilla BG2 was full of errors such as this) that takes precedence on what the class description clearly states? Seems logic!

    Brude
  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    @Demivrgvs - uh huh.

    AVENGER

    Cannot wear ankheg or dragon scale armor. Period.

    :P What it really says is:

    AVENGER

    May not wear better than leather armor.

    So clearly they can't wear leather +1 which is better than leather armor, and gods forbid leather +2...

    For that matter, the stalker description says "May not wear armor greater than studded leather." And yet they can wear white dragon scale in unmodded BG2. Do you propose changing that too?

    Brude
  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    edited September 2012
    Miloch said:

    AVENGER

    May not wear better than leather armor.

    So clearly they can't wear leather +1 which is better than leather armor, and gods forbid leather +2...
    @Miloch LOL
    Miloch said:

    For that matter, the stalker description says "May not wear armor greater than studded leather." And yet they can wear white dragon scale in unmodded BG2. Do you propose changing that too?

    Muahahaha, are you really using White Dragon Scale armor as a decisive factor?!? That armor was coded so badly and had so many inconsistencies I could write a book on it!

    Let's examine your beloved White Dragon Scale:
    - it has the Splint Mail hidden AC bonuses
    - its enchantment lvl (+3) and AC value (Base AC -2) would suggest a Full Plate instead
    - it can be used by thieves (eh? why?)
    - it has no penalty on thieving skills (better than Mithral/Elven Chain?!? how's that even possible?)

    Great example man! :D Btw, not that it matters, but I'd be fine with Stalker wearing or not wearing that armor, as long as there's consistency between class description/concpet and item's description/concept/stats. Apparently, for you it doesn't matter.

    Brude
  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    Demivrgvs said:

    That armor was coded so badly and had so many inconsistencies I could write a book on it! [book passage excerpted]

    Apparently you did! :P

    Such great insults on this forum. I should really just resign, if I cared about getting insulted. Except that I don't :P.

    As for stalkers, I think the intention was to disallow anything that would not let them stalk. I would think even non-metal plate or chain-like armors would thus be disallowed, but perhaps not. As for avengers, the only real clue is that they're against harming "nature." So you'd think they'd be against butchering cows etc. for leather and for that matter other animals. Then again, they tend to be a bit evil (though all druids are "neutral" somehow) in the games. Maybe they're just against mining (yet again, apparently not the huge mine on their own turf, the Cloakwood).

    Brude
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    They actually were against that mine. At least the Shadow Druids didn't like it.

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