Druid shapeshift enchantment

Danacm

Hi!
I read a lots of in this forum, that the druid shapeshifting forms are useless. Beacause not scale with level and cant hit any stronger foes. I think it will be somewhat help if the shapeshifting forms weapons enchantment will be +6. So they can be hit any enemies. Like the melf minor meteors or totemic druid spirit animals. Just the enchantment level, without thac0 or damage bonuses. I think it wont be unbalnced, but what is your opinion ?

SmilingSword

There need to be more options

I personally think +3 is pretty weak but +6 would be way too strong. I reckon a +4 would be balanced if you get it at around level 18 or 20.

Also the +3 weapon isn't the shapeshifters real problem, it's problem is the huge lack of defenses they have compared to real werewolves. There are mods that "fix" these problems already. There are a few, one that's way over powered and one that's pretty decent. They can be found in BG tweak pack and SCS respectively. I can't remember which mod has the not over powered version though.

Danacm

Its no just about werewolf, is about every shapeshift form. And right the other issues, defense capabilities etc is problem too. But +6 enchant is like melf meteors, is it op ? Just you can hit enemies, as a weapon, nothing else. The spirit animals can hit every enemy from start to tob cause of that but nobody feels op.

SmilingSword

@Danacm, A +4 enchantment is enough to hit anything in the game. A +6 is a godly weapon and I don't think a werewolves claws should ever be comparable in power to the upgraded Carsomyr.

Danacm

Okay, but without thac0 or damage bonuses ? So its not the same as you compare it to carsomyr, which main strength is mr, thaco, dame bonuses and dispel magic. And it meens, the melf meteors is same power as carsomyr

SmilingSword

Melfs Minute Meteor is a 1d4+3+3 fire that acts as a +5 to attack rolls, not a +6. I don't see a problem with making werewolf claws hit as a +5 or +6 as long as they don't gain the extra damage and thaco. Still something like this would have to be unlocked sometime after level 18, in my opinion.

Danacm

Btw i found the rulr in the adnd 2 dungeon master guide :

Creature vs. Creature
One obvious question that arises in the minds of those with a logical bent is "How do
other creatures fight those immune monsters?" In the case of monsters, sufficient Hit
Dice enable them to attack immune creatures as if they were fighting with magical
weapons. Table 48 lists various numbers of Hit Dice and their magical weapon
equivalents.
These Hit Dice equivalents apply only to monsters. Player characters and NPCs cannot
benefit from this.
Table 48:
Hit Dice Vs. Immunity
Hit Dice Hits creatures requiring
4+1 or more +1 weapon
6+2 or more +2 weapon
8+3 or more +3 weapon
10+4 or more +4 weapon

sluckers

Vote: Other

I'm not opposed to seeing the shapeshifting forms strengthened in some way, but at this point I don't consider them problematic or weak.

The druid shapeshifting forms are actually very useful, in my opinion. Though I suppose it depends on how you build your character. A lot of players role 90-ish charnames, which pretty much nullifies why the shapeshifting is there. When you've enough points to already max dex and grant high strength to a casting character, why shapeshift?


The shapeshifting forms allow druids to overcome the typical casting character's weakness, which is becoming boxed in and engaged in melee. With this ability, a 75 point druid can still kick ass and freely put all of their points in wisdom and charisma. Shapeshifting feels far more useful if you're playing without re-rolls, min-maxing, or re-allocation of points.

As for the enchantment level of the claws, well, I don't think there is much of a need to add enchantment. Not every spell or ability needs to--or is supposed to--last to the end of the game. The shapeshifting forms are very good through BG1 and the first half of BG2, by which time there are better druid abilities to move on to. This isn't a problem, I think, since most battles only last long enough to use your character's best abilities, rather than all of them.

The shapeshifting forms certainly get you started off, though, and they can be quite potent until the druid gains enough experience to unlock those higher level spells, at which point they'll start to rely more heavily on those. I just see it as natural progression.

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Danacm

I cant edit the poll as i see. Subtledoctor where can i find your mod, is it completed ? I like the idea of complete rework of shapeshifting, and pnp like variety of abilities.

elminster

subtledoctor said:

They all come online at level 6

MInor correction: Its actually level 7

sarevok57

I remember playing an avenger a few months ago, I hit level 7 and got all my sweet shapeshifts, and I couldn't even solo the gnolls at the gnoll fortress, ( im talking about that big bunch of 'em right on top) I shapeshifted into the spide and salamander and a group of level 1 or 2 enemies turned me to mince meat, and I thought, oh yeah these shapeshifts rock lol

znancekivell

I've found the shapeshifts minimally useful myself. I would welcome a boost in overall power and utility, otherwise as it stands, I feel like the Druid has much better options and shouldn't be using shapeshifts for any reason really.

Better AC, Enhancement bonuses, better utility would be a welcome improvement.

The Shapeshifter kit is pretty cool, but still feels lacking on its own.

jesterdesu

I feel a lot of people want druids, particularly shapeshifters to be able to replace fighters, but Druid's are casters first and foremost, the animal forms, give a bit of versatility but should not replace or be as good as fighters.

+2 enchant lets you hit any normal monster and a lot of fairly tough ones... +3 and above is only actually needed for quite few creatures.