MotB - Likes and Dislikes
I don't know why, but my party arrived at the City of Judgement and... I lost interest. I don't dislike the game or anything; it's very well-written and the explanation of the spirit-eater curse neatly integrates with all the lore and hints that you encounter along the way. The companions are likeable. I didn't grow attached to them like I did to the OC companions, though. They're not interesting enough to mitigate my bitterness at the OC ending.
The problem is, I need to finish this game so I can get started on my BG:EE/SoD/BG2EE run!
Does anyone know how close I am to the end? My party has just arrived at the City of Judgement and I guess I have to pick sides now, between the defenders and attackers. Please tell me there is a satisfying ending!
*edit: changed the title of this thread to be more reflective of the discussion
The problem is, I need to finish this game so I can get started on my BG:EE/SoD/BG2EE run!
Does anyone know how close I am to the end? My party has just arrived at the City of Judgement and I guess I have to pick sides now, between the defenders and attackers. Please tell me there is a satisfying ending!
*edit: changed the title of this thread to be more reflective of the discussion
Post edited by Autequi on
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I also found the companions to be acceptable but lackluster. I missed the more colorful personalities of Khelghar, Neeshka, and even Elanee. The MotB NPC personalities just seemed so deadpan serious and flat to me - about like Casavir.
I made it, I guess it was about halfway through, before I completely lost interest and moved on to other games. That was years ago, when it was first released, and I've never been able to summon enough eagerness to try it again.
I really just don't get it how so many people call it "the best D&D game ever". I think it's the same people who love "Planescape:Torment", which I've also never played, and can't bring myself to, because it just doesn't sound interesting to me to read my way through an interactive novel during my game time. (I like a good story and characters, but I also like a lot of hack and slash action and tactical strategy in my games.)
I wanted to try it again somewhat recently after @Vallmyr liked it and made it sound exciting, and I ran a character all the way through the OC and into the first area of MotB, meaning to continue on through. And then, other games just started to sound a lot more appealing.
All that said, I still have it in mind to play it *someday*. I don't know when or if "someday" is ever really going to come or not. Maybe.
Sorry, I can't answer your question about how far into the game you are, but @Vallmyr probably can.
Interessting that both of you dislike it. I think story and atmosphere wise MotB is one of the few masterpieces of the genre, conparable to PS:T.
first: the whole soul eater thing I found to be tedious as well, I eventually became used to it ( since I was a melee class so that makes it much easier) but I still feel like its a forced mechanic that really does ad value to the game, in RPGs I like taking my time searching every nook and cranny looking for goodies and things, with the whack soul eater mechanic you have the "hurry up and do things before you permanently die" sort of deal which may add some false source of direness to the game, but I was never a fan of it
Next: I don't know what it is, but the game just doesn't get me excited to play it, every time I went to play this expansion I felt is was more like doing homework than playing the game, I don't know what it is but I guess it just doesn't have the "I cant wait to play more to see what happens" sort of factor
Lastly: and then the real reason why i stopped playing the game is the because of the one dungeon i was doing, from what i recall i went into some shadow realm or some jargon, did some things and then there was this ship/castle thingy by the water? and it was just this HUGE tedious maze like dungeon that i couldnt figure my way out, my soul bar was going down and after hours of getting lost i just gave up
so i think they reason why i couldnt get into MoTB is that there is too much chillin, and when you start chillin, it just slows the flow right down
see in RPGs you need two things: chillin and killin, killin is just the core mechanic of RPGs so that always has to be good, and in MoTB i found it to be good, but with the chillin you need that to help tie your story altogether and to make sense of all the killin thats going on, BUT the chillin has to still be somewhat fast pace, in an RPG you have to keep the pace going and if you do too much chillin the pace slows right down to a crawl, and in MoTB i feel that the chillin takes place in a vat of molasses and it slows the game down too much and that is why i just cant get into it
now when it comes to NWN 2 expansions i really enjoyed SoZ, i admit that the first time i played it i couldnt get into it, but i came back a few years later, and i gave it an honest go and i really enjoyed playing the expansion, now with that being said was it a great expansion? did it knocks your socks off with awesomeness like the BG games did? Nope, not even close, but the one thing that i liked about SoZ is that it was actually fun, i think that is something that some game developers are forgetting to put into their games now adays is that "fun" factor, and when in came to fun i think SoZ did it quite well, in that game there is lots killin, and it even comes with a few very interesting fights, and the chillin factor is just perfect, its just enough to move the story along, upgrade/sell/buy items and then get back into the action
every once in a blue moon or so when i go back to the NWN 2 games, i 99 times out of 100 play SoZ, i guess its just because that one fits my play style better than the OC and MotB and i find it to be the most fun, but MoTB, i dont think i will ever get into that game ever, i appreciate all the content that came with it ( feats, classes and such) but the campaign inself can be tossed to the crows and i could care less of its existance
The ending would depend on what you did throughout the game, so I can't help you here.
So
Possibly?
*girds loins*
Be back in a few....
Side note: I played the OC with the Romance Pack installed, which improved Casavir immeasurably. Planescape: Torment tops my list of best games ever, actually. There is a lot of reading but it didn't feel like an interactive novel to me. Think of it as being more akin to a text adventure, maybe? One with really excellent immersive dialogs. I will admit I don't remember a thing about combat, but the game hooked me from beginning to end. I was so emotionally invested in the Nameless One and his companions. (Still shout out, 'Nooo, Morte!' every now and then.) Highly recommended.
I think people praise MotB because, like P:T, it has more philosophical depth than your average D&D game. It presents moral dilemmas and you must pick which paths are, for you, the lesser of two evils. It was well-written and well-presented, but it never drew me in the way P:T did. It's hard to invest in a new setting when you don't feel resolution from the previous one.
In any case, I'm glad I finished it. My companions all got happy-ish endings, which wrapped things in Rashemon, but I still don't know how things turned out at Crossroads Keep. *sigh*
I did not matter how good or bad the rest of the game was at that point, I simply could not get beyond that mechanic. And one of the lessons I remember way back from a frustrating time playing DoomII - when a game starts becoming more work than fun, it has stopped being a game, and it is OK to walk away from it and find something more fun instead.
I never got going on PS/T either, but that is my own fault for not approaching it as the game it was written to be. I kept looking for another action RPG like Balur's Gate, after all, it uses the same engine, and could not slow down enough to enjoy the more measured pace and writing. That is a shame, as it sounds exactly like the kind of game I should love, but for various reasons I have played the opening hour of that game to death at various times, and now every time I restart I am bored going over the same material (admittedly with the most annoying sidekick in the game, which does not help) and can never quite make it to getting engaged with the rest of the game that I missed. Maybe one day...
As for the mention of SoZ, it is such a shame that was the last expansion. I really loved the new game features added in that expansion, but really wanted a game as large as the original campaign to make use of it. It felt completely lacking in atmospheric locations that I could explore in-game, as all the dungeons felt about as large as walking into a BG tavern, although the traveling around the new maps was awesome. You could see where the development time had gone, and the series really wanted one final expansion as the crowning glory, putting it all together. Alas, it was not to be.
As for the rest, I thought that MoTB actually was much better written than the OC and therefore I liked it better. I haven't played in years, but I remember the story fondly and liked the fact that you could become a red Wizard (even if that wasn't the best power choice).
I seem to remember the NPCs as being likable although I do admit that I remember Neeshka and Khelgar more than the ones in MoTB, so.... Take that for what it is worth.
I get traumatized whenever my avatar kicks a puppy, however, so that ending is not for me. The worst actions I can generally bear to perform are to speak frostily to entitled nobles or to ask for a quest reward.
Playing as a +2 ECL race wasn't a big deal. I didn't notice any drawbacks, really. Favored Souls seem pretty easy to play, except for the agony of picking spells during leveling. Word of Faith, y'all. Word of Faith. I didn't run into any problems in the OC, and only a few in MotB when I ran low on spells and tried to hit high AC enemies with my sword. (There was a lot of swinging and missing. Thank goodness for Okku.)
I consider the ending I got to be very good.
So, it was worthwhile to play through once. I don't know if I'll play it again.
Granted I really loved Neeshka (NWN's Imoen IMHO), Khelgar more for the interesting turn than anything else but I found MOtB's Safiya and Gannayev-of-Dreams to be sublime.
Kaelyn I took because I needed a Cleric and since I ways playing a Neutral Good character One-of-Many was out and Okku was simply uninteresting.
Again by virtue of going the NG route I found the curse mechanic easier than most, it is true in the beginning it takes a bit to plan around but as powers start to manifest and as the daily suppression lowers the hunger bar it actually becomes more of an asset than a hindrance.
By the end I had no issues whatsoever with it but was boosted pretty heavily by having earned all of my companions trust (and accompanying boost stats).
I did earn all my companions' devotion, but it felt a little too much like gaming the system.
I liked the lore and the story of MOTB, and GREATLY enjoyed the environs...but I think two run throughs was enough. Conversely, I had a veritable cache of characters who I ran through or deep into the OC, that never did MOTB. I guess I enjoyed the lower levels a bit more, and being stalked by an older elf maiden turned lover. Err...anyway.
Character wise, I'd have preferred to have Khelgar come over to MOTB with the PC. I understand why they didn't do that, but Khelgar is one of my favorite characters of any game, and makes a great tank. Okku is interesting from the "I'm a bear God" perspective, which reinforces the lore of the area (something I enjoyed) and I loved his sense of honor and commitment as you built a rapport with him. Safaya was interesting from the timeline perspective, and the romance wasn't nonsensical, at least. Gannayev was great for my bard PC, not so much for my Favored Soul PC, on either the mechanical or role-play side of things. My Favored Soul couldn't abide storming the wall, so Kaelyn died, long live Kaelyn. I think my bard killed her as well. MOTB struck me as a story that would have been worthy of a novelization, but we all know how games to novelization X pan out (or don't, if you don't believe they ever existed).
All-in-all, I mostly kept NWN2 loaded for modules after a while. I think it is now retired to the dustbin of history for me, but I have said that before. MERP UK is still working on his Tolkien themed trilogy, so maybe I'll reinstall to play the series through once to completion. That would be the only reason it would be reinstalled.
Off-topic @BelgarathMTH if you like Brother Todd as a concept, the best role-play experiences in a computer game I've ever played was in a module called The Maimed God Saga on NWN2. I can't recommend that module enough.
EDIT: Fixed spelling of Safaya.
I absolutely plan to get more use out of my NWNs. I have a ton of mods downloaded to eventually play on NWN1, and when if I ever get through with those I'll look into NWN2 mods.
As far as the romances go, they're pretty limited on options. And yes, VERY Creepy McCreeperton LOL!
The real success for NWN was not with the base games, but with the PW's and Modules that people built and played. The only base game of that trilogy that I beat was SOU, but of hours invested in mods and PW's, I had countless. As much as an enhanced NWN from Beamdog appeals to me as well, getting the thousands of modders to come back to that toolset who've largely left...that would be Herculean, but necessary, for NWNEE to succeed. I don't think that's a ship that sails.
It adds like 99% of D&D 3.0/3.5's classes, prestige classes, and spells.
Still missing a few like the Fochlucan Lyrist (a recent favorite prc of mine) but has plenty of others.
http://www.athasreborn.com/prc/manual/
I need to play the original NWN's expansions as I've only played the OC.
/sigh
I have so many games on my to-do list.
I really hated that quest in the OC where you gotta help Khelgar get over himself so he can become a monk. I was trying to point out to Khelgar that he wasn't thinking things through or not seeing things from the other person's side which was the goal of the quest and he's hating every minute of it and losing influence. The way to pass the quest is just to suck up to him and antagonise people so you get into pointless fights (the opposite of one of the things he is supposed to learn) until he likes you enough to realise he's being a jerk on his own.
The whole campaign is really just a mess but I still love it my friends. MotB is a true masterpiece though, if you like games with big stories and great characterisation then you owe it to yourself to play through it. Put on God Mode if you think its too hard or you don't like that one mechanic. Its the dialogue and choices you make that are the real treasure.
HOTU was the best official campaign for NWN1. The OC was just blah. SOU was more interesting, but ultimately forgettable--at least I've forgotten most of it. HOTU had well-written henchmen, more player agency, and was just a fun experience all around. If you're thinking about playing it, well, I'd definitely recommend it.
The irony with Khelgar is that you have to have high influence in order for him to chose monk hood, although that is what he wanted in the first place. Maybe it's supposed to convey that he finally understands what it means to be a monk, and you have to convince him that he indeed has what it takes, but it just came across as waffling.
In MotB, I was trying to play true to my character, but I still found myself gaming the influence system to get points (and accompanying perks) as soon as possible. I'd rather have point losses/gains due more to your deeds and your words to other people (whether or not your companion is in your party), than by endlessly complimenting Gann's looks.
I do remember impressing Safiya at some point by doing something mechanical, which was cool. I told myself I would use the NWN2 Character Editor to reset the hunger bar if it ever got too onerous, but I never had to resort to that. Plus I kept a reserve of spirits in the Myrkul temple in case of emergency. Did have to do that once.