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Avenger and it's spider form vs. web spell

jolly_bbjolly_bb Member Posts: 122
edited November 2012 in Original BG2 Bugs
Just tested it while playing Avenger Druid (Chateu Irenicus in BG2):

-casted web
-turned myself to spider
-got hold by the web

Should not be spiders immune to web (at least own web)?

Might be like that for a purpose though. Any ideas?

EDIT:
Putting the properly formatted text in the right form, for sake of clarity, thanks to @Grieg:

Current behavior: Avenger Druid in spider form gets hold by web
Expected behavior: Avenger Druid in spider form is immune to web (especially his own)



EDIT 2:
Verified the web spell on Kitthix, the summonable spider (from figurine) just now. Seems that even if Kitthix fails save vs. web spell, he's still not held. I guess that makes it a bit pro-bug vs. pro-feature regarding the above.


Post edited by Balquo on
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Comments

  • GriegGrieg Member Posts: 507
    You mean something like (correct me if I'm wrong):
    Current behavior: Avenger Druid in spider form gets hold by web
    Expected behavior: Avenger Druid in spider form is immune to web (especially his own)

    This sounds like good bug or feature request
  • jolly_bbjolly_bb Member Posts: 122
    @Grieg

    Exactly my point. I don't think it's even a feature request. The way i racall it, spiders are by default immune to web (see Cloakwood). How come the shapeshift form is not (oh i know how come, it might be coded as Charname with different stats, abilities and image probably, not as a real spider).
  • hansolohansolo Member Posts: 136
    Avengers get the Web spell as a bonus spell not available to other Druids.
    The synergy between this spell and the spiderform seems like it was intended.
    Similar to the web traps in Cloakwood in combination with the spiders.

    I'd say it's an oversight to not grant immunity to web in spiderform, but then again one can't say for sure.
  • artificial_sunlightartificial_sunlight Member Posts: 601
    I agree that this is a bug. Spiders should be able to walk on webs, especialy your own web.
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    It's one of those things that has been bugging me about Avenger druids in vanilla games really. But it is also true that this combination would make them godly (4 attacks per round, iron skins, webbed targets and poison from sword spider form)
  • jolly_bbjolly_bb Member Posts: 122
    edited October 2012
    Cheesebelly said:

    It's one of those things that has been bugging me about Avenger druids in vanilla games really. But it is also true that this combination would make them godly (4 attacks per round, iron skins, webbed targets and poison from sword spider form)

    Sword spiders do not poison i believe (?). The HP or AC of such a spider is not great anyway. Nowhere near godly, but a help early-game to otherwise quite lousy class :)

  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    Normal Sword Spiders don't poison, the Avenger Shapeshift however does 2 poison damage per round (?), maybe more, maybe twice 2 poison damage per round, or maybe twice 1 poison damage. Either way, it disrupts spellcasting like crazy.
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    edited October 2012
    @Cheesebelly Same thing goes for the Polymorph Self spell. I think it would be an even trade off to give up the ability to poison enemies while in Sword Spider form for the ability to be immune to Web effects. Plus, it would be in consistent in terms of game rules.
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    Agreed, but don't animal Sword Spiders have 5 attacks per round as opposed to the 4 of the Avenger? :o
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    @Cheesebelly I think the 5 attacks are due to the Sword Spiders being permanently Hasted. It's different in PnP, as they normally only get 2 attacks, but they can jump horizontally up to 30 feet, which gives them the ability to use additional legs as attacks (with a damage bonus) based on the victim's size. I'm not sure which I would rather have in BG: 5 attacks every round or jumping Sword Spiders.
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    Jumping spiders... poor mages O_O
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    @Cheesebelly So much for hiding in the back of the party. Jumping Sword Spiders + Phase Spiders = mage doom.
  • jolly_bbjolly_bb Member Posts: 122
    @Mortianna how come you own every discussion with bringing PnP rules to the table :) ?
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    Unless they're with an active fireshield red+stoneskin, if that's the case, then poor spiders.
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    @jolly_bb Hahaha... Surely not every discussion?

    Hey, if it's going to be called an AD&D game, it needs to be consistent with the rules. Rendering PnP to a CRPG is never going to be perfect, but it's better to strive toward, than away, from it.
  • jolly_bbjolly_bb Member Posts: 122
    @Mortianna - all true ;)
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    The sword spider polymorph is actually extremely powerful, not just in BG1 but also in the early to mid parts of BG2. It works well for avengers and multi or dualed mages with higher thaco / hit chance because they can get the attacks to hit a lot more. The poison from the attacks shuts down and eventually kills most mages, and the attacks per round, permanent haste and thaco increase even lets you kill armored fighters / guards very quickly.

    But its always bugged me that I wasn't immune to my own webs when polymorphed into a spider.
  • styggastygga Member Posts: 467
    @mungri Sword spiders don't have poison attacks.
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    edited November 2012
    The one you polymorph into does.

    See this video, the spider is awesome (this one is the Mage's polymorph self spell):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPbxblTsA1k
  • GriegGrieg Member Posts: 507
    Mungri said:

    The one you polymorph into does.
    See this video, the spider is awesome (this one is the Mage's polymorph self spell)

    But you know he plays solo, (more experience, and therefor easier to deal with enemies)

    It is not about how powerful is spider form, but the main idea: you change into spider and therefor you get every pro and con that is related with this form and it is pretty clear that one of the main abilities of spiders is to catch victims into webs and not to catch yourself into it. So you know it is kinda bug.
  • jolly_bbjolly_bb Member Posts: 122
    I'd also prefer the spider you polymorph into not having poison damage (if it's a sword spider, it honestly should not have poision) or it being available (for Druid) after a certain level, but the immunity to web SHOULD be the case. Imagine a spider getting entangled in the web (especially own) - ROTFL :)
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Actually, it's supposed to have web immunity. The BG2 Avenger version is immune to all webs, I used it FREQUENTLY during my Avenger solo, no mods, so I assure you it's supposed to work. However the polymorph self spider form is not immune web (that one I'm not sure about...all other spiders are immune to web, so I see no reason why that one would be excluded)
  • jolly_bbjolly_bb Member Posts: 122
    Can anyone tell if this has been fixed in BGEE? My avenger is still lvl 1... :D
  • LiggLigg Member Posts: 187
    I've had a look at the plyspid.cre file which is what you turn into. I'm presuming it's the same for avengers as it is for Polymorph Self. The BGEE version comes with an antiweb.itm equipped which should make you immune to all webs. My BG2 version also has this - but it's been modded so much I can't say it's original. But my BG1 also has this item. Maybe the item which is meant to provide immunity to webs is bugged.
  • LiggLigg Member Posts: 187
    The other possibility that I can think of is that these items that your polymorphed self is meant to get don't actually appear. I tried this just now and the antiweb.itm didn't appear in my inventory. The only items to appear were the summoned weapons - the spider's claws. The probably can appear and disappear like all summoned weapons in the weapon slots.
    If this is the case then the simplest solution is to add the immunity to web effects to the clawed weapons and forget about extra inventory items. I suspect the current method works well for enemies and not party characters.
  • LiggLigg Member Posts: 187
    I just tried that solution and it works. I added effects to the polyspid.itm (spider claws):
    immunity to hold creature
    immunity to web overlay

    This was in BG2, btw.
    It just happened that the druid it made for this test rolled shit-hot stats. If I was playing for real I couldn't have rolled them after 100000 clicks.

    Also - I reckon an Avenger druid could take on most of the Black Pits.
  • jolly_bbjolly_bb Member Posts: 122
    edited December 2012
    Ligg said:



    Also - I reckon an Avenger druid could take on most of the Black Pits.

    @Ligg only thing is that the nice shapechange comes into power no earlier then lvl 7. So you might get not survive Black Pits until that lvl.

    At the end it seems that the devs did not take this bugfix onboard, right?

  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 722
    All spiders are immune to web, except spider-shapeshifted characters.
    This include both avenger druids using sword spider form, and wizards using polymorph self to turn into a sword spider.

    Expected behaviour : these forms should be unaffected by web spells.
  • JarlealeJarleale Member Posts: 114
    Current behaviour: A character polymorped to a spider is being held if he fails his save in a web.
    Expected behaviour: The spider you polymorph to is immune to web.


    Also, the spider does not inflict poison.
  • jolly_bbjolly_bb Member Posts: 122
    The same with Avenger's spider shapeshift form.

    Find the discussion here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/196338#Comment_196338

    looks like there's an item that should make the form immune, but it's bugged.
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