Feature Suggestion: Change Effects that Set a Stat

erronius

So in all the changes they are making to this game, I have one to suggest and I want to see if anyone else feels this way as well. There are quite a few effects in the game that Set your Stat, or Resist, or whatever it is to a certain level. Usually the intent of these effects is to increase the stat, for example the 2nd Level mage spell Strength gives everyone I think 18/50ish str. But if you already have say 19 str, it actually LOWERS your strength (says so right in the spell description). I have never understood why this is the case, whether it was an engine limitation, laziness on the programmers part, if it was intending to stay true to PNP, or what. To me, it makes absolutely no sense that a spell meant to make you stronger could have the opposite effect.

My suggestion would be to take all effects that "Set" something and instead make them give you a minimum. For example, Strength would set your Str to 18/50 if it was lower, otherwise no effect. This would also eliminate the (to my mind extremely cheesy) strat of casting Magic Resistance on an enemy with really high resists to modify their resists. A Shapeshifter Druid with good Con/Dex could keep those good stats in Werewolf form. Strength is not that great of a spell but it might become somewhat usable if it weren't nerfing your fighters.

So what do others think? Am I the only one bothered by this weirdness?

Lord_Tansheron

It certainly is weird behavior, but mostly because the game is a bit weird in how it works with stats. It's trivially easy to min/max, and end up with 18 STR on just about everyone, from a bard to a cleric to a thief. That is not the case in PnP, at least not to the same degree as it is in BG.

That being said, all the items that set your stats to X are, for a large part, fairly overpowered. Things like the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength and the Ring of Human Influence (and also the Gauntlets of Dexterity) are available so early in BG2 that they can be taken into account easily for character creation, and/or used to significantly buff stock game NPCs that otherwise suffer from a significant stat problem of some kind (think Keldorn's abysmal DEX). This destroys many aspects of balance, and removes a lot of diversity.

There are already mods that approach this issue in some way. Personally, I cannot recommend enough the excellent Item Revisions mod, which goes with changing the set X to A items to simply granting a +B bonus to X instead - for example, Crom Faeyr no longer gives its blatantly overpowered 25 STR, but simply adds a still very very good +3 STR instead. Other items are changed accordingly, with the size of their bonus reflecting how easy they are to obtain.
The result of this is that stats become more valuable and less easy to dump (the Ring of Human Influence for example made it trivial to run with a 3 CHA main character and still rock all the CHA checks with ease), leading to an increase in choice and diversity. It also eliminates the problem OP mentioned completely.

Aewyrven

Real world application:

Ever been in a situation where you suddenly get a burst of adrenaline?

You could be suddenly scared, startled, see a baby or small kitten in danger.

Your mind sharpens. Your strength increases. Time seems to... slow down. Your reflexes increase, it's almost... surreal.... you act with a single minded focus... get that crashed helicopter off that infant and save it's life.

The fact that you're a 17yr old 5'2 95lb unconfident wimp that still gets his lunch money stolen by the 8th grader who's 6'2 220lbs of fat doesn't factor in.

You have the adrenaline, the sense of right, and the sheer force of will on your side. Boo is quivering in hope you win!

You pull the feat off. That's you. Baby/kitten rescued.job well done.

Swap places with the 8th grader now. He is so used to being the strongest, used to being in control, he doesn't get that surge of adrenaline. He's laughing at the scrawny kid trying to lift a helicopter off a baby. He actually feels like having a nap. Why waste the energy.

Zomg there's a lich... meh I've fought lich before....

Not the greatest analogy but if you think a bit it kinda makes sense.

It's why there are those of us who are adrenaline junkies... timid people... laid back people... bullies.. Ect. .. the spell affects people differently.

The weakling becomes superman. Superman becomes indifferent and maybe goes *whew, someone else got this for a change*

Make sense?

erronius

@Lord_Tansheron Sure, of course. The 2nd edition stat system is way more "idiotsyncratic" than 3rd edition, what with the dead zones, and the "godly" unreachable stats in the 20s. I will have to check that mod out, it does sound interesting. And yeah, I've definitely used that trick. My Monk usually starts the game with a Strength of 3 in order to have good enough stats to wear Keldorn's Armor (sadly you can't do this anymore...)

EDIT: @Aewyrven No, it doesn't make sense (to me at least). Kudos if it makes sense to you but to me, a spell that is intended to buff someone's strength should at the very least not make them weaker.

justfeelinathome

I think that keeping stats in shapeshifting situations could lead to some very broken combinations, that ultimately throw the forms 'balance' (what little there is thereof) out of the window. Mind flayer form and spiders come to mind. Even on basic druids: who would ever pick the wolf (high dex, decent strength), when he could have a bear (high strength, but low dex) who also uses his characters dexterity?

Also, from a logical standpoint it makes little sense to me. Just give the Cloak of the Sewers to Dorn or Minsc and marvel of the might of a 18+ strength rat!

Aewyrven

erronius said:

@Lord_Tansheron Sure, of course. The 2nd edition stat system is way more "idiotsyncratic" than 3rd edition, what with the dead zones, and the "godly" unreachable stats in the 20s. I will have to check that mod out, it does sound interesting. And yeah, I've definitely used that trick. My Monk usually starts the game with a Strength of 3 in order to have good enough stats to wear Keldorn's Armor (sadly you can't do this anymore...)

EDIT: @Aewyrven No, it doesn't make sense (to me at least). Kudos if it makes sense to you but to me, a spell that is intended to buff someone's strength should at the very least not make them weaker.

OK. I'll try a different approach.

You drink coffee?

This spell confers the same effects of coffee to everyone at a table of 6.

The waitress drops espresso shots to everyone at the table. (The cleric drops strength of one to everyone in the group)


If you never drink coffee (or other caffinated drinks, redbull tea monster code red mtn dew ect)

You're gonna bounce off the walls be a psycho hamster crazy yeah yeah yeah yeah let's go man con lilarcor.

If you are one of those ones that's a firkraag in the morning until you have your first cup.... you're just going to wake up and go oh hey sup.

That make better sense? Same drug. Same spell. Different effect.

erronius

OK but to take your analogy... drinking coffee doesn't usually make people LESS energetic. It might make you bounce off the walls if you don't usually drink it, but it would be a very rare person that caffeine causes them to fall asleep. It's one thing for a Strength spell to have no effect on someone who's already super strong. It's another for it to cause them to get weaker.

@justtravelinthrough OK, that does make a lot of sense. Fair points all. (Though in the unmodded game, shapeshifting is almost entirely useless. Which is a shame because it's a cool concept. From a balance perspective I don't see any issue with always using the higher of the 2 possible stats, though from a making sense perspective I have to agree with you).

lansounet

The effect can modify or set a stat, it's just some spells/items are like that... blame 2ed rules I guess?

Dee

How about this instead:

A belt of Hill Giant strength gives you the strength of a hill giant. It doesn't add to your strength; it makes you as strong as a hill giant.

If you're already stronger than a hill giant because you eat Wheaties for breakfast, the belt still makes you as strong as a hill giant, whether that's good or bad for you individually.

Obviously the Strength spell doesn't talk about making you "as strong as" anything; it just talks about the number it sets your Strength score to. But the principle is the same. It replaces iron with steel; if you had titanium before, it still replaces it with steel.

(In game mechanics terms, though, I agree, it's a little weird that a "Strength" spell could make you weaker than before.)

Lord_Tansheron

Dee said:

It replaces iron with steel; if you had titanium before, it still replaces it with steel.

The flaw in that analogy explains nicely why people are so confused this works like it does.

You hear "It replaces iron with steel", and that seems intuitive enough. However what it in fact really does is replace WHATEVER YOU HAVE with steel, be that wax, copper, titanium or adamantite. That usually goes against what people expect, and though it is definitely explained in detail in the description, it confuses people because it is, to a degree, un-intuitive.