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SoD Epilogue chapter [SPOILERS!]

EarXEarX Member Posts: 4
Hey everybody!

First time poster here. I just played through SoD and overall I loved it. Well written, nice new background art. It tickled me how many of the old VO actors came back to reprise their roles too. Very nice, well done Beamdog!

SPOILER-TIME:
But unfortunately the epilogue chapter didn't make much sense to me. It felt contrived and somewhat jarring. All your former friends and companions immediately go into full-on hang em high-mode once the Duke's daughter winds up dead. No one questions why the person who risked everything to save the Sword Coast twice, and once from a demonic invasion no less, would kill the Duke's daughter out of the blue? No motive, no attempt to conceal the act. Everyone thinks it's plausible that the hero person would do it just for kicks? Hmm...

So yeah, I wasn't so happy about that. I think it could have worked better if the plot's scale had been a tad less epic and/or the Bhaalspawn ambivalence among your allies had been more overt throughout, maybe with more events like the bridge thing to emphasize it? Or if everybody, close companions included, hadn't been quite so eager to point their condemning fingers at you in the end.


Apart from that though, I had a great time :)

Comments

  • illathidillathid Member Posts: 320
    EarX said:

    Hey everybody!

    First time poster here. I just played through SoD and overall I loved it. Well written, nice new background art. It tickled me how many of the old VO actors came back to reprise their roles too. Very nice, well done Beamdog!

    SPOILER-TIME:
    But unfortunately the epilogue chapter didn't make much sense to me. It felt contrived and somewhat jarring. All your former friends and companions immediately go into full-on hang em high-mode once the Duke's daughter winds up dead. No one questions why the person who risked everything to save the Sword Coast twice, and once from a demonic invasion no less, would kill the Duke's daughter out of the blue? No motive, no attempt to conceal the act. Everyone thinks it's plausible that the hero person would do it just for kicks? Hmm...

    So yeah, I wasn't so happy about that. I think it could have worked better if the plot's scale had been a tad less epic and/or the Bhaalspawn ambivalence among your allies had been more overt throughout, maybe with more events like the bridge thing to emphasize it? Or if everybody, close companions included, hadn't been quite so eager to point their condemning fingers at you in the end.


    Apart from that though, I had a great time :)

    I played with the canon party and none of them left me out to dry. :wink:
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    edited April 2016
    I agree that the epilogue is problematic:

    How it is

    Imoen is your childhood friend and wants to help you. She gathers up Jaheira and Khalid, who still have some loyalty to you regardless of your actions because of their friendship with Gorion. Minsc and Dynaheir are there for some reason and call you their "friend" even if you tried to kill them in BGI.

    Problems: Minsc and Dynaheir. What could Imoen possibly say to them given her motivations that would make them change their minds if they had reason to hate you or didn't even know you? Why wouldn't she just choose allies from the party you had?

    How it Should be

    Jaheira and Khalid are members of the Harpers and friends of Gorion. Now that they know you are a child of Bhaal, their interest in protecting and guiding you goes beyond personal friendship and is focused on maintaining balance and working towards a greater good. They gather up a witch and her ranger, both of whom are sympathetic to their cause. Imoen, motivated by care for her childhood friend, seeks them out and joins.

    Problems: None. Minsc and Dynaheir don't have to like you or even know you - they are there because the case made by Jaheira and Khalid appeals to their alignment.

    I really, really wish they would do something about that epilogue. The game is good overall, but this is a weak point.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited April 2016
    Purudaya said:

    I agree that the epilogue is problematic:

    How it is

    Imoen is your childhood friend and wants to help you. She gathers up Jaheira and Khalid, who still have some loyalty to you regardless of your actions because of their friendship with Gorion. Minsc and Dynaheir are there for some reason and call you their "friend" even if you tried to kill them in BGI.

    Problems: Minsc and Dynaheir. What could Imoen possibly say to them given her motivations that would make them change their minds if they had reason to hate you or didn't even know you? Why wouldn't she just choose allies from the party you had?

    How it Should be

    Jaheira and Khalid are members of the Harpers and friends of Gorion. Now that they know you are a child of Bhaal, their interest in protecting and guiding you goes beyond personal friendship and is focused on maintaining balance and working towards a greater good. They gather up a witch and her ranger, both of whom are sympathetic to their cause. Imoen, motivated by care for her childhood friend, seeks them out and joins.

    Problems: None. Minsc and Dynaheir don't have to like you or even know you - they are there because the case made by Jaheira and Khalid appeals to their alignment.

    I really, really wish they would do something about that epilogue. The game is good overall, but this is a weak point.

    Haven't played SoD myself, so I'll withhold judgment for now - except to point out that we already know Dynaheir was investigating Alaundo's prophecies. She'd be motivated to keep an eye on the player, without needing to be convinced by Jaheira and Khalid.
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    shawne said:

    Purudaya said:

    I agree that the epilogue is problematic:

    How it is

    Imoen is your childhood friend and wants to help you. She gathers up Jaheira and Khalid, who still have some loyalty to you regardless of your actions because of their friendship with Gorion. Minsc and Dynaheir are there for some reason and call you their "friend" even if you tried to kill them in BGI.

    Problems: Minsc and Dynaheir. What could Imoen possibly say to them given her motivations that would make them change their minds if they had reason to hate you or didn't even know you? Why wouldn't she just choose allies from the party you had?

    How it Should be

    Jaheira and Khalid are members of the Harpers and friends of Gorion. Now that they know you are a child of Bhaal, their interest in protecting and guiding you goes beyond personal friendship and is focused on maintaining balance and working towards a greater good. They gather up a witch and her ranger, both of whom are sympathetic to their cause. Imoen, motivated by care for her childhood friend, seeks them out and joins.

    Problems: None. Minsc and Dynaheir don't have to like you or even know you - they are there because the case made by Jaheira and Khalid appeals to their alignment.

    I really, really wish they would do something about that epilogue. The game is good overall, but this is a weak point.

    Haven't played SoD myself, so I'll withhold judgment for now - except to point out that we already know Dynaheir was investigating Alaundo's prophecies. She'd be motivated to keep an eye on the player, without needing to be convinced by Jaheira and Khalid.
    Hey, didn't even remember that. In that case, they could just add a line or two of exposition to the existing scene and make the "friends" reference dependent on alignment/reaction score. At least I no longer have to head-cannon it now.
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,297
    Purudaya said:

    shawne said:

    Purudaya said:

    I agree that the epilogue is problematic:

    How it is

    Imoen is your childhood friend and wants to help you. She gathers up Jaheira and Khalid, who still have some loyalty to you regardless of your actions because of their friendship with Gorion. Minsc and Dynaheir are there for some reason and call you their "friend" even if you tried to kill them in BGI.

    Problems: Minsc and Dynaheir. What could Imoen possibly say to them given her motivations that would make them change their minds if they had reason to hate you or didn't even know you? Why wouldn't she just choose allies from the party you had?

    How it Should be

    Jaheira and Khalid are members of the Harpers and friends of Gorion. Now that they know you are a child of Bhaal, their interest in protecting and guiding you goes beyond personal friendship and is focused on maintaining balance and working towards a greater good. They gather up a witch and her ranger, both of whom are sympathetic to their cause. Imoen, motivated by care for her childhood friend, seeks them out and joins.

    Problems: None. Minsc and Dynaheir don't have to like you or even know you - they are there because the case made by Jaheira and Khalid appeals to their alignment.

    I really, really wish they would do something about that epilogue. The game is good overall, but this is a weak point.

    Haven't played SoD myself, so I'll withhold judgment for now - except to point out that we already know Dynaheir was investigating Alaundo's prophecies. She'd be motivated to keep an eye on the player, without needing to be convinced by Jaheira and Khalid.
    Hey, didn't even remember that. In that case, they could just add a line or two of exposition to the existing scene and make the "friends" reference dependent on alignment/reaction score. At least I no longer have to head-cannon it now.
    It's a charm spell dialogue. Cast it on Dyna in the gnoll fortress before talking with her. Easy to miss.
  • EarXEarX Member Posts: 4
    I just did another playthrough of the last bit and it seems like I got the evil chr ending or something because I didn't go through the right dialogue options at the trial. So that's why the story didn't hang together :P
  • PhilhelmPhilhelm Member Posts: 473
    @Ammar I've played BG since back in '98, and I never knew of Dynaheir's mission until a couple weeks ago...lol
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited April 2016
    Philhelm said:

    @Ammar I've played BG since back in '98, and I never knew of Dynaheir's mission until a couple weeks ago...lol

    It was in the game since '98. lol

    @EarX, it may be a "shitty" reason, but most of the logic as to why most of your companions abandon you is simple. You're Bhaalspawn. They assume that your father's evil nature is overtaking you. And, if you were evil, made evil choices, etc. ...well, then it may not be too much of a logical stretch. If you were good and therefore made good choices, it's unfortunate, but it's not without precedent in the Forgotten Realms world. "Power corrupts", the saying goes. The fear is, Bhaal's power corrupted you.
    As far as the Dukes of Baldur's Gate are concerned, there's also some political stuff going on. You just saved BG (twice!). You're massively popular. Some of the Dukes may view you as a threat to their power and influence. What's more convenient than letting the blame for a murder fall on you. All they have to do is cry, "Bhaalspawn" and it appeals to people emotionally. They don't need proof to prey on people's fears.
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    I really liked the epilogue. So much better than BG2' epilogue. Yes really. BG2 ends with "wakey, wakey thanks for saving our city. Here, have a necklace"

    The devs took Skie -- the NPC who no one used the first, third or tenth time they played BG1 and made her terribly entertaining. And what a good setup when she died at charname's hands? Heartbreaking. And they find a solid reason why she couldn't be restored to life.

    This ending built a needed bridge between the BG1 and BG2. In BG1 the canonical charname is -- through exertion of willpower -- able to channel Bhaal's power for good. In BG2 the good charname believes that Bhaal's taint is a burden that she wants lifted from her shoulders. Why this switch? Why not just use more of that willpower to get more healing spells? Oh. I see. Now I get it.

    Oh and hooded man? I am so going to enjoy defeating you.
  • cloudkillbeatsallcloudkillbeatsall Member Posts: 98
    What's happened is the question of why certain people are with you in the dungeon has been replaced with the question of why certain people are rescuing you from jail.
  • ValamirCleaverValamirCleaver Member Posts: 184
    Calemyr said:

    The part that killed me? I was a cleric! I can't even use daggers! I should have been able to submit that in my defense.

    You know what pissed me about this about this ham-fisted, railroaded ending?! I never touched the Slayer creature. I avoided it until it appeared to pass out. You know what made it even worse, I played as a Paladin Cavalier. I save the city of Balder's Gate twice; but I'm treated as a presumed murderer, despite the fact that I didn't lose my Paladin powers; talk about a city full of ingrates. A setting with a vast array of Divination spells such Detect Lie, but some writer decided to go with this maladroit mess.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636

    Calemyr said:

    The part that killed me? I was a cleric! I can't even use daggers! I should have been able to submit that in my defense.

    You know what pissed me about this about this ham-fisted, railroaded ending?! I never touched the Slayer creature. I avoided it until it appeared to pass out. You know what made it even worse, I played as a Paladin Cavalier. I save the city of Balder's Gate twice; but I'm treated as a presumed murderer, despite the fact that I didn't lose my Paladin powers; talk about a city full of ingrates. A setting with a vast array of Divination spells such Detect Lie, but some writer decided to go with this maladroit mess.
    Do you really think the common citizen of Baldur's Gate cares about you being a paladin? HELL NO! You've been confirmed as a Bhaalspawn and accused of murder. That's proof enough for the average citizen. The Forgotten Realms isn't like most modern nations, where you're "innocent until proven guilty". Public fear is more than enough to sink your chances at being proven innocent in court.
  • illathidillathid Member Posts: 320

    Calemyr said:

    The part that killed me? I was a cleric! I can't even use daggers! I should have been able to submit that in my defense.

    You know what pissed me about this about this ham-fisted, railroaded ending?! I never touched the Slayer creature. I avoided it until it appeared to pass out. You know what made it even worse, I played as a Paladin Cavalier. I save the city of Balder's Gate twice; but I'm treated as a presumed murderer, despite the fact that I didn't lose my Paladin powers; talk about a city full of ingrates. A setting with a vast array of Divination spells such Detect Lie, but some writer decided to go with this maladroit mess.
    I'll admit it not touching you was a bad choice. It should've attacked you and dealt damage so you had to kill it.
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,297
    Ah, but it is very clear from the "Murder" cutscene that you did *not* actually kill Skie. Irenicus did. He just put the dagger in your hands afterwards. He tries to get you to kill her, goes "you are stronger than expected" and then decided "that he just needs you to be present".

    The whole slayer episode is not actually killing Skie, it is something Irenicus put in your hand to make you *think* you killed her.
  • illathidillathid Member Posts: 320
    Ammar said:

    Ah, but it is very clear from the "Murder" cutscene that you did *not* actually kill Skie. Irenicus did. He just put the dagger in your hands afterwards. He tries to get you to kill her, goes "you are stronger than expected" and then decided "that he just needs you to be present".

    The whole slayer episode is not actually killing Skie, it is something Irenicus put in your hand to make you *think* you killed her.

    Oh, interesting. I thought the stronger than expected line was about you remembering at all. I'll have to watch that again.
  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470

    Calemyr said:

    The part that killed me? I was a cleric! I can't even use daggers! I should have been able to submit that in my defense.

    You know what pissed me about this about this ham-fisted, railroaded ending?! I never touched the Slayer creature. I avoided it until it appeared to pass out. You know what made it even worse, I played as a Paladin Cavalier. I save the city of Balder's Gate twice; but I'm treated as a presumed murderer, despite the fact that I didn't lose my Paladin powers; talk about a city full of ingrates. A setting with a vast array of Divination spells such Detect Lie, but some writer decided to go with this maladroit mess.
    Actually you can say that in your defense.
  • ValamirCleaverValamirCleaver Member Posts: 184
    @Alexisisinneed
    Which I did in addition to other things, but my character was still treated as a presumed murderer. Unfortunately whatever maladroit writer who decided on this railroaded excuse for an ending did not have the foresight to make available a dialog choice describing how my character never touched the creature and avoided it until it apparently fainted and passed out. You nor anyone else is ever going to be able contort logic enough to shine this turd enough to convince me that this complete absence of player agency is an acceptable ending...
  • SamuelVargSamuelVarg Member Posts: 598
    The only thing I don't like is that the Skie-murder-plot is never resolved or even mentioned again.
    This leads directly into BG2 and then Irenicus framing of you is never anything you adress.
  • FrkunFrkun Member Posts: 52
    Actually that scene made me forget about the good points of the game. I was also a cleric, not being able to use daggers. No one cared about how I saved them all... twice, and it was copletely out of the blue. It was not even related to the main story: it just happens. You could have skipped the whole expansion and nothing wrong would have happened.

    Writting stories is not about having a perfect grammar: it's about telling a consistent story. Whoever wrote this part completelly ignored the basics about storytelling.
  • illathidillathid Member Posts: 320
    The Cleric/dagger thing is such a dumb argument. It's mistaking a gameplay element for a story one. It's not as if there's some magical force preventing a cleric from holding a dagger. And in the court of public opinion facts like this rarely matter (I'd even go so far to say that facts rarely matter at all when it come to public opinion).

    The story in SoD was to explain two major points: 1) how your heritage became known to the public at large in BG2; 2) What the dark circumstances were that caused you to be exiled from Baldur's Gate. This it does very well and also includes an adventure. The adventure is tertiary to the points listed above. That's not a bad thing, it's often how many very good stories work.
  • SamuelVargSamuelVarg Member Posts: 598
    illathid said:

    The Cleric/dagger thing is such a dumb argument. It's mistaking a gameplay element for a story one. It's not as if there's some magical force preventing a cleric from holding a dagger. And in the court of public opinion facts like this rarely matter (I'd even go so far to say that facts rarely matter at all when it come to public opinion).

    The story in SoD was to explain two major points: 1) how your heritage became known to the public at large in BG2; 2) What the dark circumstances were that caused you to be exiled from Baldur's Gate. This it does very well and also includes an adventure. The adventure is tertiary to the points listed above. That's not a bad thing, it's often how many very good stories work.

    I agree. The only thing I miss is that the murder is never mentioned again.

    Will it be resolved in a comming expansion or adventure? Maybe ...
  • SamuelSamuel Member Posts: 12
    The dagger-cleric argument just made my day, thank you for that :)


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