I mean, it's a totally legitimate tactic. I've done it a couple times, it works well. But the fact that we weren't even given the option to have her NOT dual-class in BGII was just ... ugh.
In my current BGT game, I made her a gypsy (from song&silence mod+ level1npcs). I don't really fancy multiclass characters (made Jaheira a pure avenger, too), and gypsy seemed fitting to her character, despite the fact that gypsies can't cast magic missiles. Would have made her a pure adventurer, if I was an arcane spellcaster; chateau Irenicus exit doesn't seem like a plot-hole to me either: wasn't she carrying a wand of magic missiles when escaping Candlekeep anyway?
In the end, I'm all for allowing her to stay a thief, albeit a somewhat "gifted" one.
@Sassaroli Just curious, because I've been tempted to mod out Jaheira too: How did it play with her as a pure Druid? At her original stats, her fighter side is pretty weak and it seems like making her a pure caster would be a lot more fun.
As for the original topic: Most of you people are nutty.
I don't see much advantage in waiting so long if you're dualing Imoen. Those 3-4 levels you're adding on don't make her substantially better at the thieving skills she needs to have (opening locks and finding traps), and more importantly it takes longer for her to get access to spells like Fireball!
@Awong124 hit the nail on the head in the first post. Level 4 for the prof point. Level 5 for the backstab.
Since she starts with ~25 points in every skill and gets 25 points per level, that gives you enough to nearly max out two skills. Which is pretty much all you need.
Level 6 for me. Enough to max out Find Traps and Open Locks and still be able to reach 9th level as a mage (you can't beat the usefulness of a well placed Chaos spell).
Since planning and playing the above I have removed the XP cap which makes the logic slightly redundant... nevermind...
I was so angry when they dual-classed her in BG2; my endgame BG1 Imoen was a capped thief who could unlock anything, find any traps that ever existed, hide in even a suggestion of a shadow, and backstab anything that irritated her into little gory chunks.
I was the same when I first played BG2. I was like WTF? Why is she a mage? TBH, I never even thought about dual classing her once to a Mage before BG2 came out. Now, if I have a party of 6, I don't dual her. However, if I have a party of two (Imoen and myself), I dual her to a Mage.
I rarely have her in my party (in BG1), but from memory I dualed her at 7. I usually had another single class mage in the party so she was there for support magic/buffing, locks & traps. I usually had a seperate thief (Monty or Shar-Teel - dualed to fighter/thief) for backstabing.
I'd rather she was a thief/mage dual, really I think the way to look at it (especially in BG2) is that instead of a gimped thief which is how alot of people seem to see her once she's a dual - You've got a mage who can disarm traps, open locks & use thief weapons. It's a two for one, sure she's not the great single class thief she could of been but she makes a much more interesting, capable & hardy mage. In BG2 it allows her to fill two roles for the price of one character slot.
@Brude I'm indeed using J. as a caster. As for her fighting skills, she's doing fine with a sling Somehow I like her better this way, As a matter of fact, I never let her fight seriously in any ofy runs.
Most of the time I don't dual class Imoen. But on the rare runs I do it's at level 5. By this time the party has taken care of the bandit camp and is traveling towards the cloakwood. In my current run through BG1 I had her dual to Transmuter. Either that or Illusionist.
This way she'll have no issues of becoming a 9th level wizard (BG1 + ToSC without mods). The only moot point is that she'll have only one weapon slot.
There are quite some replacement thieves around at the early game (Safana, Montaron, Coran) and later on you can even have some more choices.
@sandmanCCL i actually just finished a bg1 team where every single character had divine or arcane spells, killed drizzt in melee combat with that team as well, quite badass
Level 4 would give enough thieving points to at least max out or get close to maxing out one skill, and give you an additional proficiency point.
This would be my advice as well.
I also like to grab Shar-Teel ASAP, and dual her to a thief at level 3, allowing her to get a 3rd prof point in long sword before she duals. Then imagine a backstab from her!
Similar to Eidolon, I can't stand chipper, spunky females, but if I do have Imoen, I never dual her. I keep her as thief for all BG1. I also have her as Thief (adventurer) which gives bonuses to Find and Open, but eliminates stabbing.
Level 4 would give enough thieving points to at least max out or get close to maxing out one skill, and give you an additional proficiency point.
This would be my advice as well.
I also like to grab Shar-Teel ASAP, and dual her to a thief at level 3, allowing her to get a 3rd prof point in long sword before she duals. Then imagine a backstab from her!
Wait til 6. You gain one more bonus to that Long Swords skill, as well as the potential for 12 more HP. Thieves level up fairly quickly so while it'll take a bit longer to regain those warrior skills, it's not that long of a wait. And the better HP will still be there for you either way, which is a total win-win.
You could theoretically wait til 7 before dual-classing her to thief, but you'd miss out on end-game x4 backstab and it'd take that much longer to regain those warrior proficiencies and thac0. Trade off is she'd have more attacks per round once regaining warrior levels. Definitely something to consider either way.
There is no need to dual her, she is already powerful. If you want to dual her for some reason, do it the second she gets 100locks and 100detect traps, which should be really easy if playing with tutu.
I am downright surprised at the number of people who don't dual-class her. There are umpteen bajillion thieves and even then if you're just going for bare minimum values to get through the game, you only really to hit about level 5 with any given thief. I see little to no reason to keep her as one when you have the option of picking up mage levels.
Because, I mean... Mage. Hello? Mages. It's AD&D. Mages can do whatever they want.
This made me lol a little bit. At level 10 as a thief, she wouldn't even be able to reach level 2 as a mage before hitting the XP cap. It could work if you remove the XP cap though.
This made me lol a little bit. At level 10 as a thief, she wouldn't even be able to reach level 2 as a mage before hitting the XP cap. It could work if you remove the XP cap though.
Removing xp cap isn't such a sin =D
I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm just saying that the idea of dualing at level 10 is pretty funny if you don't remove the cap.
for uncapped bg:ee, id probably go for a bountyhunter, he gets additional throwable traps, and traps with stun @lvl11. Trapping Sarevok should be pretty funny.
I've beaten the game a million times. I rarely don't use Imoen, and I have never not dual-classed her. There's no theory-crafting here. Mages are the kings of AD&D. Mages that can also pick every lock, disarm every trap and use short bows? Money.
What the hell does that even mean? If you're trying to call me out, be a man about it and just say it rather than insinuate you think I'm full of it.
I've gone through the entire saga with a solo Blade. I've gone through at least a significant portion of BG1 with every single-classed class and beaten it with at least half of those guys. (I tend to get really bored after the Candlekeep dungeon.) I've gone through Baldur's Gate 2 even more times than that.
If we're not counting the multitude of half-finished games ending out of boredom, I've cleared the entire saga with at least 10 characters I can recall off the top of my head.
Are there things my memory is fuzzy on? Absolutely. Do I still discover stuff all the time? Most definitely. That's one of the reasons I love the game as much as I do. I always seem to find something new or some new strategy to employ.
@sandmanCCL This isnt a personal thead, not it is my goal to prove anyone being "full of it", why would i even care. Stick to the facts. Which are, according to the above quote, you always dual Imoen. So havent actually tried a pure class Imoen or any other thief specialized in more than picks and traps, am i right? So instead of arguing why not simply try it. Solo Drizzt or a Dragon maybe, pure thief, no problem.
just to let everyone know, you dont need 100% pick locks, there is no chest in the game that requires that high, 90% is the highest you ever need period for any chest, and even the chest that is at the foot of kiel's bed, you might fail a couple of times for whatever reason but 90% still picks it, but unfortunately you need 100% disarm traps to do everysingle trap in the game ( although i believe 90% does almost all of them, there be only a select few that 90% disarm traps cant do if im not mistaken, and they be in durlags tower) so everyone can stop putting 100% in open locks, and put that extra 10% somewhere else
My first ever BG game I dualed her at level 4 (Dave Milward walkthrough's advice) and regretted it for not having enough thieving stats.
Dualed at level 5 she can get decent in Find Traps and Pick Locks. Dualed at level 6 you can afford the luxury of not only having decent find traps/pick lock stats, but also put points in stealth and have her be a scout. In one of my games I had Coran and Imoen both at the same time scouting for traps in different directions in Durlag's Tower. It was fun to clear the level real fast.
If I make a party that's got enough mages already though (Charname + Xan for instance) I let her be a thief until the end.
Actually when you dual Imoen to mage she'll get access to invisibility and knock spells. With the first spell she can still scout. With the other spell she can open the locks for which the lock picking skills don't suffice. So the main focus could be on trap skills. Additionally the luck spell can give a temporary boost to thieving skills (in addition to potions).
Then again there is no loss in taking along another thief or bard.
The reasons I don't dual Imoen are roughly: ... * better mages to play with ...
This is the only one reason why I dual Imoen. While Enchanters, Invokers and Conjurers do get additional spell slots, their specialization denies them access to certain useful spells. The least worst off is probably the Conjurer.
But with the available spells other specialist wizards are better off (e.g. Transmuter who can still learn dispel magic despite being denied abjuration spells).
Well if anyone is thinking in terms of BG:EE, since the cap is at least going to be raised... I might try to get her to a level where she has that kick ass backstabbing. When I look at I one, its in terms of the saga and not just bg1. I dialed her at 7 before mods though... Then at 9 after mods
And for those that say that Mage/thief is worthless... Well... I play differently than you. I personally find fighter/thief just a crap setup.
Comments
I mean, it's a totally legitimate tactic. I've done it a couple times, it works well. But the fact that we weren't even given the option to have her NOT dual-class in BGII was just ... ugh.
I don't really fancy multiclass characters (made Jaheira a pure avenger, too), and gypsy seemed fitting to her character, despite the fact that gypsies can't cast magic missiles.
Would have made her a pure adventurer, if I was an arcane spellcaster; chateau Irenicus exit doesn't seem like a plot-hole to me either: wasn't she carrying a wand of magic missiles when escaping Candlekeep anyway?
In the end, I'm all for allowing her to stay a thief, albeit a somewhat "gifted" one.
As for the original topic: Most of you people are nutty.
I don't see much advantage in waiting so long if you're dualing Imoen. Those 3-4 levels you're adding on don't make her substantially better at the thieving skills she needs to have (opening locks and finding traps), and more importantly it takes longer for her to get access to spells like Fireball!
@Awong124 hit the nail on the head in the first post. Level 4 for the prof point. Level 5 for the backstab.
Since she starts with ~25 points in every skill and gets 25 points per level, that gives you enough to nearly max out two skills. Which is pretty much all you need.
Since planning and playing the above I have removed the XP cap which makes the logic slightly redundant... nevermind...
I'd rather she was a thief/mage dual, really I think the way to look at it (especially in BG2) is that instead of a gimped thief which is how alot of people seem to see her once she's a dual - You've got a mage who can disarm traps, open locks & use thief weapons. It's a two for one, sure she's not the great single class thief she could of been but she makes a much more interesting, capable & hardy mage. In BG2 it allows her to fill two roles for the price of one character slot.
This way she'll have no issues of becoming a 9th level wizard (BG1 + ToSC without mods). The only moot point is that she'll have only one weapon slot.
There are quite some replacement thieves around at the early game (Safana, Montaron, Coran) and later on you can even have some more choices.
I also like to grab Shar-Teel ASAP, and dual her to a thief at level 3, allowing her to get a 3rd prof point in long sword before she duals. Then imagine a backstab from her!
You could theoretically wait til 7 before dual-classing her to thief, but you'd miss out on end-game x4 backstab and it'd take that much longer to regain those warrior proficiencies and thac0. Trade off is she'd have more attacks per round once regaining warrior levels. Definitely something to consider either way.
I am downright surprised at the number of people who don't dual-class her. There are umpteen bajillion thieves and even then if you're just going for bare minimum values to get through the game, you only really to hit about level 5 with any given thief. I see little to no reason to keep her as one when you have the option of picking up mage levels.
Because, I mean... Mage. Hello? Mages. It's AD&D. Mages can do whatever they want.
>I'm going to be totally honest here.
Thats because you havent play the game, and theorycrafting on the forum isnt gonna help much.
I've beaten the game a million times. I rarely don't use Imoen, and I have never not dual-classed her. There's no theory-crafting here. Mages are the kings of AD&D. Mages that can also pick every lock, disarm every trap and use short bows? Money.
Beaten the game a million times? See here we go again.
I've gone through the entire saga with a solo Blade. I've gone through at least a significant portion of BG1 with every single-classed class and beaten it with at least half of those guys. (I tend to get really bored after the Candlekeep dungeon.) I've gone through Baldur's Gate 2 even more times than that.
If we're not counting the multitude of half-finished games ending out of boredom, I've cleared the entire saga with at least 10 characters I can recall off the top of my head.
Are there things my memory is fuzzy on? Absolutely. Do I still discover stuff all the time? Most definitely. That's one of the reasons I love the game as much as I do. I always seem to find something new or some new strategy to employ.
This isnt a personal thead, not it is my goal to prove anyone being "full of it", why would i even care. Stick to the facts. Which are, according to the above quote, you always dual Imoen. So havent actually tried a pure class Imoen or any other thief specialized in more than picks and traps, am i right? So instead of arguing why not simply try it. Solo Drizzt or a Dragon maybe, pure thief, no problem.
* Role-play reasons
* better mages to play with
* house rules
* play style (e.g. no reloads)
* low power play
Dualed at level 5 she can get decent in Find Traps and Pick Locks. Dualed at level 6 you can afford the luxury of not only having decent find traps/pick lock stats, but also put points in stealth and have her be a scout. In one of my games I had Coran and Imoen both at the same time scouting for traps in different directions in Durlag's Tower. It was fun to clear the level real fast.
If I make a party that's got enough mages already though (Charname + Xan for instance) I let her be a thief until the end.
Then again there is no loss in taking along another thief or bard.
But with the available spells other specialist wizards are better off (e.g. Transmuter who can still learn dispel magic despite being denied abjuration spells).
And for those that say that Mage/thief is worthless... Well... I play differently than you. I personally find fighter/thief just a crap setup.