I'd really like to play a Thief/Bard

PugPug

I love the Bard class, but having thieving skills and backstab would make it so much better.

It'd be even better if I were able to select kits. I might even forgo backstab and make it Swashbuckler/Blade just because they kind of have the same theme.

But it's clear to me that BG:EE needs to let us choose any multiclass combination dynamically, given the number of these threads.

Kithrixx

Well, that wouldn't be a complete clusterfuck of the 2e rules that BG:EE is based on OR a major code revision at all. And only roughly two months away from the ship date!

I'd personally love to see it happen. Is it gonna? Probably not.

Grammarsalad

two things strike me as problematic with this though keep in mind that I'm still learning and could be wrong.

First thing is that bards get an automatic improvement in pick pocket per level (determined by a 2da.)

Thing is that the 2da seems to SET rather than give a bonus to the skill which might mean that any thieving skillpoints put into pp would be lost when leveling up as a bard.

Also, it seems that tob bards start out with 100% set trap probably because they I think they have trap seeing hlas.

Also there is the "button issue". I've tried my darndest to give bards pick lock but the button just want s to pick pockets.

Also it seems that spls designed to give them points in pick lock don't work (or at least they don't display on the sheet or even viewing with shadow keeper.) It also seems that that 2da--cant remember the name off the top of my head-skillbrd2da?--isn't expandable. That is, I can't seem to use it to give bards additional thief skills.

Why an I mentioning this? Well my guess is that if you see anything like this it'll probably be in a mod. I would be interested in making such a mod (or at least a thieving bard kit or barding thief kit). But to do that I would need some things "softened". I would need to be able to add thief buttons to the kit gui (whether bard or thief). it would be nice if that 2da was expandable (rangers too while we're at it) and could give accumulative bonuses to the skill quining I'm right about the skill being set. Also, if set trap could granted with a spl at the appropriate level that would be nice. It would be nice if bards could play nicer with thief skills.

I actually have no idea exactly what would need to be changed but I think this would help.

@andreacolombo is there an externalization request about the buttons? Also, I don't know if this counts as an externalization but can we request that the skillxxx.2da be expandable?

AndreaColombo

@Grammarsalad - making an already existing 2DA file expandable is definitely a feature request, and one I would definitely endorse.

As for GUI buttons: The GUI should already be either fully externalized, or almost fully so. I believe the devs have plans for the buttons part in terms of features, and it has already been suggested by players that the bottom bar be made customizable so I think they're aware. For now, I wouldn't file an externalization request: Let's see how things turn out, and possibly request customizability as a GUI feature if it doesn't get implemented already.

Grammarsalad

Good show @andreacolombo thanks fire the info!

Thinking about the possibilities, if the bottom bar was customizable by the player (like iwd2) that would make these sorts of mods a breeze!

Bercon

The only difference between Thief/Bard and Thief/Mage would be the bard song? Is that really worth the poor spell casting progression?

PugPug

Bercon said:

The only difference between Thief/Bard and Thief/Mage would be the bard song? Is that really worth the poor spell casting progression?

Casting in armor, THAC0, faster XP table, some Bard-only equipment, a love for the Bard class.

The Bard song in 2e is pretty much useless unless you yourself are useless, because it requires you to stop all other actions while you are playing.

Kithrixx said:

Well, that wouldn't be a complete clusterfuck of the 2e rules that BG:EE is based on OR a major code revision at all. And only roughly two months away from the ship date!

I'd personally love to see it happen. Is it gonna? Probably not.

In what way does it violate the rules? They're not exactly easy to come by these days.

And yeah, while I think you slightly overestimate the amount of time it would take if they were committed to it, it's probably not gonna happen before release if it hasn't already. I just hope it has already.

HaHaCharade

The whole point of a Bard is that its a jack of all trades, master of none. To allow a bard multi-class is kind of pointless imo. It's like playing a Fighter/Paladin.

Now all that being said... if you were going to allow a multi-class with bard, I believe Fighter/Bard was introduced in "The Complete Book of Fighters" in 2nd Ed. expanded content. This is the only one that kind of makes sense to me. All other combinations seem FUBAR. :-P

Cloutier

Worst request ever.

Dee

Cloutier said:

Worst request ever.

Challenge accepted!

AndreaColombo

@Aosaw - quote recognized

Roller12

I didnt like the absolute freedom NWN/3ed gave in class selection. Classes became washed out and purely selected because of bonuses. A blackguard/paladin/sorc multiclass, a popular combo, are you kidding me..

Boaster

Bard is a Mage-Thief, the same way a Ranger is a Fighter-Druid and Paladin is a Fighter-Cleric.

DrAngry

I think BGEE could still use the archaic 2nd edition rules while allowing more multi-class options & infinite dual-class combinations. But it probably won't happen because Beamdog doesn't care about Bard/Thieves.

TJ_Hooker

PugPug said:

Bercon said:

The only difference between Thief/Bard and Thief/Mage would be the bard song? Is that really worth the poor spell casting progression?

Casting in armor, THAC0, faster XP table, some Bard-only equipment, a love for the Bard class.


I'll admit it's been awhile since I've played BG, but I think you've got a couple of these wrong. Bards can't cast in armor any better than mages. I believe there are some pieces of armor that do allow it, but I think those are in BGII. And if you're talking about BGII equipment, there is armor mages can wear that allows spellcasting too. THAC0 will be the same because multiclass uses the values of whichever class has faster progression, so the rogue table will be used regardless. Also if you're really patient, you can use bard stuff as a thief/mage once you get the Use Any Item HLA.

Awong124

TJ_Hooker said:

PugPug said:

Bercon said:

The only difference between Thief/Bard and Thief/Mage would be the bard song? Is that really worth the poor spell casting progression?

Casting in armor, THAC0, faster XP table, some Bard-only equipment, a love for the Bard class.


I'll admit it's been awhile since I've played BG, but I think you've got a couple of these wrong. Bards can't cast in armor any better than mages. I believe there are some pieces of armor that do allow it, but I think those are in BGII. And if you're talking about BGII equipment, there is armor mages can wear that allows spellcasting too. THAC0 will be the same because multiclass uses the values of whichever class has faster progression, so the rogue table will be used regardless. Also if you're really patient, you can use bard stuff as a thief/mage once you get the Use Any Item HLA.

You would have better THAC0 as a bard than thief/mage, because a bard would still level up faster than the thief portion of the multiclass.

TJ_Hooker

Awong124 said:

TJ_Hooker said:

PugPug said:

Bercon said:

The only difference between Thief/Bard and Thief/Mage would be the bard song? Is that really worth the poor spell casting progression?

Casting in armor, THAC0, faster XP table, some Bard-only equipment, a love for the Bard class.


I'll admit it's been awhile since I've played BG, but I think you've got a couple of these wrong. Bards can't cast in armor any better than mages. I believe there are some pieces of armor that do allow it, but I think those are in BGII. And if you're talking about BGII equipment, there is armor mages can wear that allows spellcasting too. THAC0 will be the same because multiclass uses the values of whichever class has faster progression, so the rogue table will be used regardless. Also if you're really patient, you can use bard stuff as a thief/mage once you get the Use Any Item HLA.

You would have better THAC0 as a bard than thief/mage, because a bard would still level up faster than the thief portion of the multiclass.

Yes but in this case we're talking about the difference between a thief/mage and a hypothetical thief/bard. I believe that for any given level/amount of XP their THAC0s would be identical.

Awong124

Ok, I see. Yeah, for a thief/bard it would in essence just cut your XP rewarded in half.

PugPug

TJ_Hooker said:

PugPug said:

Bercon said:

The only difference between Thief/Bard and Thief/Mage would be the bard song? Is that really worth the poor spell casting progression?

Casting in armor, THAC0, faster XP table, some Bard-only equipment, a love for the Bard class.


I'll admit it's been awhile since I've played BG, but I think you've got a couple of these wrong. Bards can't cast in armor any better than mages. I believe there are some pieces of armor that do allow it, but I think those are in BGII. And if you're talking about BGII equipment, there is armor mages can wear that allows spellcasting too. THAC0 will be the same because multiclass uses the values of whichever class has faster progression, so the rogue table will be used regardless. Also if you're really patient, you can use bard stuff as a thief/mage once you get the Use Any Item HLA.

Oh yeah, you're right. My bad.

I guess I was thinking of bard armor; elven chain and such. I don't know how its AC compares to, say, the Robe of Vecna.

Figrut

@HaHaCharade You couldn't see a bard/druid?

Kaxon

Bard/Thief seems really pointless to me since they're already both rogues and follow many of the same progressions. It seems like what you really want is a Bard kit with some more thieving skills.

HaHaCharade

Figrut said:

@HaHaCharade You couldn't see a bard/druid?

Um... No.. Lol. Bards are social entities that travel from urban place to urban place singing songs and telling tales. Druids are nature freaks who stick to the woods and honestly tend to be more anti-social. Sure a PC can be anything but still they are very different concepts to me.