Gnome, Halfling and Dwarf saving throws / Con adjustments

salieri

I've been reading about the innate saving throw bonuses for the different races with interest recently, as 15 years ago these things totally passed me by. I've read conflicting accounts of how the bonuses are updated, with some sources saying that they are calculated based on your Con score at character creation and never change, and others that they update according to your Con at level up.

Does anyone know which is true? Also, if the latter, is it calculated from your natural Con score or will they be affected by stat modifiers like equipment or spell effects? I ask speficially as I'm planning a gnome cleric/illusionist, and I'd like to give him the Claw of Kazgaroth, but obviously I won't want my natural saving throws gimped by the Con penalty.

Quartz

This is the best explanation I've found so far. I apologize that it doesn't answer *all* of your questions, but a fair amount of them:

http://www.playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Races_and_Stats#.22Shorty.22_Saving_Throws

salieri

Thanks @Quartz I think I've read that one before at some point, but it looks reliable enough that I believe it so thanks for reminding me of it.

Quartz

@sandmanCCL may be able to answer some of your other questions. We shall see.

salieri

Hmmm, I just read that the Claw of Kazgaroth is not usable by clerics, thieves or druids. Does this mean it can't even be used by a multiclass cleric? I can only remember using it on a pure mage before...

moody_mage

The conflicting accounts are probably one of mine. As far as I am aware (now I've been corrected) they are calculated at level up. @sandmanCCL should know in more definite detail about the other points.

Miloch

The saving throws update by your constitution at level up. Now I'm not sure, but I think they would be based on natural constitution, not the stat augmented by items etc. The starting saving throws for BG1 NPCs are wrong though; however, they'll be fixed at level up. The BG1 NPC Project mod fixes them (as does BGEE from the looks of it).

Edit: Claw of Kazgaroth is usable by everyone, btw.

salieri

Miloch said:

The saving throws update by your constitution at level up. Now I'm not sure, but I think they would be based on natural constitution, not the stat augmented by items etc. The starting saving throws for BG1 NPCs are wrong though; however, they'll be fixed at level up. The BG1 NPC Project mod fixes them (as does BGEE from the looks of it).

Edit: Claw of Kazgaroth is usable by everyone, btw.

Aces, thanks Miloch

sandmanCCL

Dwarves, Halflings and Gnomes gain bonus saving throws vs. Death/Spells/Wands. (Gnomes only get it vs. Spell and Wands.) It's based on constitution. Quartz linked the table already so I'll just let that be that.

If your constitution changes and it'd bump you up to the next threshold, the saving throws don't kick in til your next level up. In fact, due to an oversight, NPC shorties won't have the proper saving throws til after they gain their first level up.

I'm actually not sure what effect permanently LOSING constitution would do. I've never tested that out.

I am like 99% certain it's based off your base stat. Modifying constitution via gear, potions or spells does not have an effect on it to the best of my knowledge.

As for the question about being able to equip the Claw, I think it just means for single-class versions of those classes. Haven't tested that out yet. But generally speaking anything barred from a class is usable if you're multi-classed with something else that can use it. Weapons are the exception. Again, haven't tested that out and am not in a position to do so at the moment.

salieri

Thanks @sandmanCCL, I'm satisfied I know what I need to now. No idea why I never thought to run a cleric/illusionist myself in the old days.

Miloch

@salieri - I think the restriction comes from the Horn of Kazgaroth, not the Claw. Everyone can use the Claw, but clerics, druids and thieves cannot use the Horn (multiclass thieves can, but not multiclass clerics or druids). The saving throw stat modifier from the Horn only lasts 18 seconds, and I'm pretty sure as @sandmanCCL said that it would not affect level-ups. The saving throw modifier on the Claw lasts as long as it's equipped, which probably doesn't affect level-up stats either. If it were a "permanent" (timing mode 1 instead of 2 "while equpped") effect then it probably would, as the tomes do.

Edit: extra points for anyone who knows who Kazgoroth is. (Hmm, that appears to be a typo in the original game too...)

sandmanCCL

http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1302

Google solves all. Looks like a.. Dinosaur? minion of Bhaal.

elminster

sandmanCCL said:

Dwarves, Halflings and Gnomes gain bonus saving throws vs. Death/Spells/Wands. (Gnomes only get it vs. Spell and Wands.) It's based on constitution. Quartz linked the table already so I'll just let that be that.

If your constitution changes and it'd bump you up to the next threshold, the saving throws don't kick in til your next level up. In fact, due to an oversight, NPC shorties won't have the proper saving throws til after they gain their first level up.

I'm actually not sure what effect permanently LOSING constitution would do. I've never tested that out.

I am like 99% certain it's based off your base stat. Modifying constitution via gear, potions or spells does not have an effect on it to the best of my knowledge.

As for the question about being able to equip the Claw, I think it just means for single-class versions of those classes. Haven't tested that out yet. But generally speaking anything barred from a class is usable if you're multi-classed with something else that can use it. Weapons are the exception. Again, haven't tested that out and am not in a position to do so at the moment.

Hmm I never realised a gnome received less protection than a dwarf or halfling. Interesting.

Lord_Gay

I remember reading about Kaz in the Moonshae Isle books... didn't know about any connection to Bhaal though. I just thought it was the mortal enemy, the opposite, of the Earthmother.

sandmanCCL

elminster said:

Hmm I never realised a gnome received less protection than a dwarf or halfling. Interesting.

Halflings and dwarves are hardy folk, so the saves vs. death is saves vs. poison, basically. All three of those races are resistant to magic for different reasons. It all works out the same in the end though.

Quartz

sandmanCCL said:

elminster said:

Hmm I never realised a gnome received less protection than a dwarf or halfling. Interesting.

Halflings and dwarves are hardy folk, so the saves vs. death is saves vs. poison, basically. All three of those races are resistant to magic for different reasons. It all works out the same in the end though.

And everyone gets raped by Save Vs. Breath Weapon. (Okay, high level fighters have decent saves there)

Thus why Skull Trap is a surprisingly awesome spell.

PugPug

I've read that the shorty bonuses to saves were actually never implemented.

elminster

PugPug said:

I've read that the shorty bonuses to saves were actually never implemented.

No they certainly are. Just look at the differences in spell/wand saves for Jan vs someone else in your party. It is very noticeable since he gets +4 to those saves (meaning a smaller number).

salieri

Thanks for all the info guys. I just can't bloody wait for the game to actually come out. I'm sure overplanning my first run will have a detrimental effect on my enjoyment.

kilroy_was_here

@PugPug They were implemented, but aren't referenced anywhere in the game (even the manual). So unless you know the PnP rules or are staring at a shorty's saves going *hmm.....* you might never notice.

neleothesze

sandmanCCL said:

Dwarves, Halflings and Gnomes gain bonus saving throws vs. Death/Spells/Wands. (Gnomes only get it vs. Spell and Wands.) It's based on constitution. Quartz linked the table already so I'll just let that be that.

If your constitution changes and it'd bump you up to the next threshold, the saving throws don't kick in til your next level up. In fact, due to an oversight, NPC shorties won't have the proper saving throws til after they gain their first level up.

I'm actually not sure what effect permanently LOSING constitution would do. I've never tested that out.

I am like 99% certain it's based off your base stat. Modifying constitution via gear, potions or spells does not have an effect on it to the best of my knowledge.

Sorry to resurrect this thread but the same question you had was plaguing me today so I decided to test things out, @salieri. If you've played ahead then you've probably already discovered this ingame but I thought I'd mention it in case you were still saving that character for when BG:EE is released.

To test the way the Claw affects shorty saves: halfling vs dwarf was the easiest choice because they have death/breath and spells both.
The halfling begins with 18 constitution + 1 Tome (19 con/ +5 to saves) - 2 from Claw of Kazgaroth = 17 Con/+4 to saves in theory
The dwarf begins with 19 constitution + 1 Tome (20 con/+5 to saves) - 2 from Claw of Kazgaroth = 18 Con/+5 to saves in theory
added enough xp for a level up to make sure the values were updated and both the halfling with now 17 constitution and the dwarf with 18 constitution had the exact same saves
=> equipment modified stats don't count even when it's a cursed item. Don't know if this is a bug though or intended behavior since your HP gets lower from losing 2 Con. Shouldn't saves be affected as well? I couldn't find anything about this in either the fixed or the bugs forum...

But this is just one other thing where halfling thieves win over dwarf thieves for example. Both thieves get no extra bonus from Con over 16 except for the saves and lowering your Con further through items doesn't lower your saves; So there is absolutely no point in having a 20 Con dwarf thief as I had thought

Ah well, better to know now than ingame I guess.

TJ_Hooker

neleothesze said:

So there is absolutely no point in having a 20 Con dwarf thief as I had thought

Non-warrior classes don't get HP regeneration at 20+ constitution?

Miloch

TJ_Hooker said:

Non-warrior classes don't get HP regeneration at 20+ constitution?

IIRC, no, only warriors get higher constitution bonuses (above 16).

Brude

Miloch said:

TJ_Hooker said:

Non-warrior classes don't get HP regeneration at 20+ constitution?

IIRC, no, only warriors get higher constitution bonuses (above 16).

Whaaaa? MY HALF ORC CLERIC/THIEF HAS BEEN ROBBED.

;-;

AHF

Miloch said:

TJ_Hooker said:

Non-warrior classes don't get HP regeneration at 20+ constitution?

IIRC, no, only warriors get higher constitution bonuses (above 16).

For BG2, all classes get HP regeneration at 20+ constitution. They don't get more than +2 HP/LVL for Con bonus but they get the regeneration.

I'm not sure about BG1.

Quartz

Dude, you totally regenerate with a 20 Constitution with all classes. Seriously. You don't get robbed of that. Just no extra HP.

sandmanCCL

Fighters and Orcs both want to be a raw fighter or barbarian, or some sort of fighter/something.

There really is no point to being a single-class thief that isn't a halfling or elf.

Sindyan

So to get this right for shorties

Increasing save bonus up to 18 (maxed)
Only increased con for fighters/warrior class after 16. Other classes get no other increased hp.

ginger_hammer

@Sindyan yes that is correct.