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Wraithform spell

MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
edited November 2012 in Fixed
I always found it frustrating that my Necromancer couldn't learn this spell.
(Especially since it was available only as an Easter Egg drop in BG.)
Wraithform is one of the rarer spells in 2nd edition that belonged to two schools of magic: Alteration and Illusion/Phantasm. According to 2nd edition rules, a specialist wizard may still learn/cast a spell that has two schools if one of the schools is permitted and the other forbidden. Since Necromancers may cast Alteration but not Illusion/Phantasm (and vice versa for Abjurers), they should be allowed to learn it. Is this fixable?

Post edited by Tanthalas on
AntonMornmagor
«1

Comments

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,677
    the last time i found that spell was yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeears ago, one of the dopplegangers dropped it in durlag's tower, that spell kinda kicks a lot of butt for its level, wouldnt it just be better to have protection from normal weapons instead?

  • KenKen Member Posts: 226
    That spell is way usefull if you are a fighter mage! It is only lvl 3!

    Ithual
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    Interesting, i thought the same. That spell could easily be construed as its opposing schools (Abjuration/Necromancy). But i didn't know about the rule you just cited:

    "According to 2nd edition rules, a specialist wizard may still learn/cast a spell that has two schools if one of the schools is permitted and the other forbidden."

    Is there an easily available online source for this?

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    I thought Wraithform didn't even work in BG1.

    Quartz
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    edited October 2012
    @Avenger_teambg So far, I haven't been able to find a clear statement of this rule anywhere (it's not in PHB), but it's implied both in The Complete Wizard's Handbook (WH) and The Complete Book of Necromancers (CBN).

    For example, there are a few spells that belong to both Necromancy and either Enchantment or Illusion/Phantasm (the latter being prohibited schools for Necromancers in canon 2nd edition): Blackmantle (WH), Bone Club (WH), Corpse Visage (WH). Yet several of the Necromancer NPCs in the CBN have those spells memorized and they're listed under "common spells for Necromancers." This would seem to imply that as long as one of the schools is permissible, the spell should be available to wizard specialists.

    In BG1, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (Alteration, Evocation) is usable by Xan, even though being an Enchanter prohibits him from learning spells from Evocation. I'm not sure if the reverse is true for Abjurers. What's odd is that Xan cannot use Chromatic Orb, even though it also belongs to the Alteration and Evocation schools.

    @Tanthalas I remember giving it to Xan in ToTSC, but can't remember if it worked pre- or post-modding.

    AntonMornmagor
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,677
    yeah that spell works, very usefull against sarevok :)

  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    On second thought, this could easily be rendered into the bug reporting format:

    Current Game Behavior
    1. "Wraithform" spell is not learnable by Necromancers

    2. "Chromatic Orb" spell is not learnable by Enchanters and Abjurers

    Corrected Behavior
    1. "Wraithform" spell may be learned by Necromancers

    2. "Chromatic Orb" spell may be learned by Enchanters and Abjurers

    *See my previous post on this thread regarding PnP rules that legitimize this request and clarify the spells specialist wizards may cast.

  • lansounetlansounet Member Posts: 1,182
    I'd say this is a tough issue, BG games aren't strictly conform to PnP rules. IIRC in AD&D specialist mages should have 2 opposing schools whereas in BG they only have one, so it might make sense balance-wise to restrict "double-school" spells based on their primary school, which is the case for Chromatic Orb/Wraithform (you have mentionned those already) and also Melf's Minute Meteors.

    My opinion is that it was intended to restrict them.

  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    @Iansounet I see where you're coming from. Game balance is important and not all of the PnP rules can be implemented in a CRPG. That being said, I always interpreted prohibiting only one school in BG (as opposed to the two or three schools in PnP) compensated for the lack of other bonuses and special skills that wizard specialization otherwise offers to them. The only bonus for wizard specialization is an extra spell per level at the cost of losing access to an entire school of magic. Further restricting them from spells that have both a permissible school and a forbidden school seems overly restrictive and doesn't make much sense to me in terms of game mechanics.

    In PnP, the opposing schools depend on the specialty school. Illusion has three opposing schools, whereas Divination only has one.

    Regarding your comment about restricting double-school spells based on their primary school, how does one determine the spell's primary school? Is Wraithform an Illusion or Alteration spell? Is Chromatic Orb an Alteration or Evocation spell? I interpret the rationale behind giving spells two schools is to allow specialist wizards more, not less, access to them.

    I know I'm spending a lot of energy pushing for a rather small issue, but (as a long-time AD&Der) the logic behind restricting these spells has always "bugged" me. :)

    mlnevese
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,420
    Otiluke's is a straight alteration in BG/BG2, and Chromatic Orb is an evocation. Both are restricted as such.

    Avenger_teambgTanthalas
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    Chromatic orb is single school here too: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Chromatic_orb
    Though i see other sources where it is double schooled. I see no reason to change it.

    I think if someone wants to 'fix' this or Wraithform, they can do it as a simple modding exercise. No need to waste more time and resources on it :)

  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,420
    I'd like to say that I'm shocked BG2 is inconsistent in how it handles dual-school spells, but I really can't.
    • Melf's Minute Meteors, Fireshield (Blue), Fireshield (Red), Lower Resistance and Spellstrike all behave as if they're single-school spells.
    • Wizard Eye and Limited Wish are restricted from both opposition schools.
    • Wish is restricted from neither, but we left it alone in FP since it appeared to be intentional to allow for the Wish quest.
    BG has no dual-school spells.

  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    @CamDawg and @Avenger_teambg Thanks for the info. Shadowkeeper (for BG:EE) it will be then.

  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    @CamDawg What school is Wraithform in BG and BGII?

  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    It is illusion and excludes necromancer in bg1
    Doesn't exist in vanilla ToB

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Its Illusion and something else too.

  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,420
    The description says it's alteration/illusion, so it's another dual-school spell that ignores the second school.

  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    @CawDawg That would explain why Xzar or my Necromancer PC can't scribe/cast it. I always liked it because it's a combination of Protection from Normal Weapons, Protection from +1 Magical Weapons, and 25% MR. The balancing factor is that the caster cannot cast spells while the spell is in effect. Otherwise, it would be overpowered for a 3rd level spell.

  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    @Tanthalas

    So now it works in the game as dual-schooled?

  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    @Tanthalas
    Dare I ask: will it be useable by Necromancers and Abjurers?

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @Mortianna

    Nope. In the process of creating/adding the spell we added those restrictions.

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    sarevok57 said:

    the last time i found that spell was yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeears ago, one of the dopplegangers dropped it in durlag's tower, that spell kinda kicks a lot of butt for its level, wouldnt it just be better to have protection from normal weapons instead?

    Old post but: Protection from Normal Weapons is a 5th level spell. This one is usable much earlier at the cost of disabling spellcasting. Still, it'll be a great spell for Fighter/Mages.

  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    edited October 2012
    @Tanthalas @CamDawg @Avenger_teambg @lansounet

    Dislike! :( (You knew that was coming)

    I'm sure all of you have better things to do than engage in more juridical debates about game rules than you need to. Many thanks for the all the clarifications on this.

    Post edited by Mortianna on
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,677
    @Tanthalas thats exactly the point, there are tons of enemies who only have normal weapons and that is the only thing going for them, so pretty much one level 3 spell and you are god mode, even against the last boss, maybe that is the reason why they got rid of it?

  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    @sarevok57 Isn't Sarevok's sword a +2 weapon? That should be able to hit a character using Wraithform, as it only protects against normal and +1 weapons.

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @sarevok57
    Sarevok's sword isn't considered a normal weapon, so he can hit you.

    I see your point though.

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