I doubt the original one was coded wrongly, increasing AC and making it magical to compensate is logical. A non magical AC2 is fine too though, provided it will be AC2. The original one wasnt that great of an armor anyway tbh. but as long as its a AC1 non-magical its rulebreaking, both BG1 and p&p, heh.
The only way to get better AC through gear is full plate and a ring of protection or the Plate Mail +3 at the bottom of Durlag's Tower. I would say the Full Plate +1 as well but you don't get that til you're literally outside Sarevok's doorstep.
It's also only 25 pounds and for the BG2 engine, doesn't have a very high strength requirement to equip. You find me something better for Branwen, Viconia and Faldorn. Hint: You can't.
@fighter_mage_thief Meh. Watch this. IIRC Bioware allowed Druids to use Scimitars via small swords profiency, but made Drizzt's scimitars large swords.
You know what Druids actually need to be viable in BG? Companions.
I mean Minsc is a ranger and he has Boo.
Why no one ever tought of giving Jaheira, Faldorn or Cernd a real pet that can also fight? I mean, they have read the rulebooks right? Druids get companions...
Bards on the other hand, need something close to a FULL REVAMP to be viable. Right now. they are abysmal. The songs are pretty useless. Giving them full Rogue abilities would be a good idea.
Monks just need good itemization and they are set. They'll probably be a viable choice overall in BG:EE as PC or NPC.
I believe they're adding in a new sexy club to compensate for the lack of decent Druidic weapons.
Edit: so let me get things straight, in the original BG the Ankheg armour was non-magical armour with an AC rating of 1 when it should have been magical with an AC rating of 3 with a +2 magical bonus, thus giving it an overall AC rating of 1? So in BG:EE they're now making it magical, which will in turn change its name to Ankheg armour +2 with an AC rating of 1 and won't be wearable alongside items of protections? What's this talk of giving it an AC of 2? Is that according to the original pnp rules? Wouldn't it then be Ankheg armour +1?
That's nice to hear. As I pointed out in the 'fixed' forum, An AC 1 Ankheg Plate would actually be an +1 enchanted Ankheg Plate according to the AdnD Rulebooks. Unenchanted and therefore non-magical would be AC 2.
I'd prefer the item description to be updated to reflect it being +1 magical enchanted, but well, non magical and AC 2 works, too, I guess.
To be back on topic: Druids are great and definitely not unloved. As mentioned altready they can wear the almighty Drizzt Scimitars (You don't have to kill him, pickpocket will work, to obtain Icing Death). In BG2 they receive at least two Druid specific staffs (3 with the one from Cernd). Also, I highly suspect, that some magical kind of Clubs will be added to BGEE, which will be an upgrade compared to vanilla BG. In TotSC, there is a +3 Staff a Druid can obtain pretty early. And there aren't many non-cursed +3 items.
Druids are very viable as SandmanCCL rightly points out, just not great. I sympathize with the Druid's plight, but I don't think handout items are the solution.
I'd favour changes in spells and powers would be the answer. The Icewind Dale druid, for example, kicks @$$. Static charge (oh my god, what a spell, all the way to Heart of Fury) and improved and more interesting shapeshifting powers. The Druid of these games is an offensive threat as well as a defensive support caster. He does not replace the cleric, either: Clerics still have superior armour access, tanking spells and the devastating turn undead. Nothing like chunking vampires with the click of a button!
A final change I'd recommend (more for BG2:EE) is PLEASE FIX THE STUPID DRUID XP TABLE
@Silence There is nothing to fix about the Xp table. It is conform with ADnD rules. The Druid levels extremely fast in the beginning, witch is very nice in BG1. Later (beginning somewhere in BG2 territory) it slows down significantly, but not before having access to all the good spells. Finally, when he reaches Lv 15 he gets a HUGE boost in spellslots (at which point he has more Lv 7 spells than a cleric with same Xp and higher LV) and starts to gain levels appr. at the speed of a mage. That's a bit of an up and down, agreed, but I like it.
I agree with you that more shapechange forms similar to the IWD Druid would indeed be nice
@DJKajuru Charm Animal is available via low level spell. Tracking is more of a Ranger thing, imo.
@Silence There is nothing to fix about the Xp table. It is conform with ADnD rules.
It's to conform to an AD&D rule that didn't make sense even in AD&D.
Ideally I'd like to see it tweaked somehow. They are drastically weaker than clerics or anyone else for that matter for like 1.75mil XP. It's absurd. It single handedly cripples fighter/druid multi-class. It's why Jaheira is bottom tier NPC for BG2. Even Cernd ends up better because he doesn't have to wait +3million XP to finally progress into epic druid levels.
@sandmanCCL I'd argue that Jaheira tops Cernd at ervery single point in the game. I played her through whole of the BG saga. The point, when she finally reaches Lv 15 Druid hasn't really that big of an impact. Just because she is such an OP melee monster before already. I tended to leave most of her spellslots unused by then anyway.
Besides all classes gain HLA at the same point (appr. 3 mill), if it is that what you mean by epic druid levels?
In summary, compared to a cleric, the druid will lead early on, in mid BG2 the cleric will get pole position to be switched to druid again by start of ToB. In the end both are equal in power. And, honestly, doesn't make this difference it the more interesting? At least I feel this way I for one don't like the equal level scheme in 3rd DnD edition. Makes it simpler, yes, but also more boring. That's one of many reasons why I love 2nd edition so much. But that might just be me.
@sandmanCCL I'd argue that Jaheira tops Cernd at ervery single point in the game. I played her through whole of the BG saga. The point, when she finally reaches Lv 15 Druid hasn't really that big of an impact. Just because she is such an OP melee monster before already. I tended to leave most of her spellslots unused by then anyway.
Besides all classes gain HLA at the same point (appr. 3 mill), if it is that what you mean by epic druid levels?
In summary, compared to a cleric, the druid will lead early on, in mid BG2 the cleric will get pole position to be switched to druid again by start of ToB. In the end both are equal in power. And, honestly, doesn't make this difference it the more interesting? At least I feel this way
She gains epic level feats at the rate of a fighter who levels twice as slow. It's pretty bad. Even at 3mil, she won't get any epic level feats from her druid side til she's at like 6 million XP.
The differences between the classes are already interesting enough. I don't need an arbitrary antiquated rule making it so one class is significantly behind another one for a really, really, really long time.
I love druids. I argue all the time they are way better than people give them credit for. Cernd is actually pretty awesome if you utilize him right. Dropping in and out of his 8 or so shapeshifts per day to re-Iron Skins himself then hulking back up to werewolf again is pretty awesome. I just wish they weren't so gimp for a significant portion of the game.
@sandmanCCL Your info on gaining HLA isn't correct. In my current playthrough (appr. 3.8 mill xp, that's 1.9 on the Druid part) Jaheira already has two Druid HLAs.
I always take Jaheira, I once had Cernd, and I played twice as a Druid PC. I can't say I felt gimped at any time in the whole game, concerning the druid class, even between level 13 to 15. And even as a multiclass. I guess it seems to be more of a theoretical problem looking only on numbers and sheets. Actually playing this class feels very satisfying though. And throughout the game.
Oh and I wouldn't say Cernd is weak. Jaheira is just a bit more powerful :P But maybe I'm just a Jaheira fanboy .
I like the idea of a druid pet, maybe some sort of space monkey to do my bidding??
Please no. We don't need to turn BG Druids into a version of Hunters from The Game That Shall Not Be Named.
(Doesn't matter if D&D, AD&D, 3e, or whatever, did it first. It will still play like .. Hunters).
@Brude, Worst logic ever, so glad you don't get to make decisions.
Yes lets leave out abilities that conform to the rules because of a game that has some of the most irrational hate ever and isn't even in the same genre, cause that makes perfect sense.
As for the topic, all the classes play really strong if setup right, both spell and gear wise.
I've played a no-kit bard through BG 1 that was the main tank for the group, he was a beast and became even more so in BG 2 when Elven Chain appeared!
Druids in BG 1 (Stupid Fighter/Druid aside) are also extremely powerful if used right, only thing that really showed them up was the ever so sexy drow cleric, otherwise PC Druids easily surpassed the other NPC clerics.
Only class I've never been fond of was the ranger, aside from dual-wielders (They get two points for fee) they seemed like watered down Fighters/X builds, sure rangers lvled faster, but they just ended up with less abilities, but even then I usually just chalked it up to my playstyle and moved on.
This is all pre-kits btw, Kits tend to change dynamics a lot, for example I love the Archer kit for Rangers, makes them extremely lethal!
I always install the tweakpack component that gives Druids the Cleric's xp and spell progression table but:
By following this board I see that many people consider that the Druid's faster level progression is an advantage of the class, so I wouldn't like it to disappear. I think I'd prefer a Druid xp table where they would always be 1 level ahead of Clerics with the same amount of experience.
I always install the tweakpack component that gives Druids the Cleric's xp and spell progression table but:
By following this board I see that many people consider that the Druid's faster level progression is an advantage of the class, so I wouldn't like it to disappear. I think I'd prefer a Druid xp table where they would always be 1 level ahead of Clerics with the same amount of experience.
Yea as it stands now the level advantage disappears for Druids after level 13. I agree though I would like to see the Druid table remade so that Druids get at least a longer period of level advantage in the case of BG2EE.
@Brude, Worst logic ever, so glad you don't get to make decisions.
Yes lets leave out abilities that conform to the rules because of a game that has some of the most irrational hate ever and isn't even in the same genre, cause that makes perfect sense.
It was mostly a joke, but if we're gonna be all super serious now, let me see if I have this straight ---
1) You think implementing arbitrary rules from PnP -- a completely different medium -- is a good idea for a commercial videogame?
2) You want a sidekick over which players have limited control, one which will require constant micromanagement, and that can't be changed easily, if at all? Not to mention terrible AI pathing, which is all but guaranteed given the limitations of the original engine.
3) You want what would be, essentially, a 7th party member because the game's not easy enough?
Is that about right, bright eyes? If so, I'm doubly glad you're in charge of jack and ****.
And let's not pretend anyone but the hardcore makes secondary genre distinctions. They don't. Games like Diablo, Baldur's Gate, Warcraft, and Dark Alliance are all "fantasy" games.
Comments
What.
The only way to get better AC through gear is full plate and a ring of protection or the Plate Mail +3 at the bottom of Durlag's Tower. I would say the Full Plate +1 as well but you don't get that til you're literally outside Sarevok's doorstep.
It's also only 25 pounds and for the BG2 engine, doesn't have a very high strength requirement to equip. You find me something better for Branwen, Viconia and Faldorn. Hint: You can't.
It would go nicely with my cloak that reflects lightning.
Meh. Watch this. IIRC Bioware allowed Druids to use Scimitars via small swords profiency, but made Drizzt's scimitars large swords.
In the ORIGINAL baldur's gate there were no Scimitars (they weren't introduced until ToTSC, so the small sword proficiency was merely for daggers.
I mean Minsc is a ranger and he has Boo.
Why no one ever tought of giving Jaheira, Faldorn or Cernd a real pet that can also fight? I mean, they have read the rulebooks right? Druids get companions...
Bards on the other hand, need something close to a FULL REVAMP to be viable. Right now. they are abysmal. The songs are pretty useless. Giving them full Rogue abilities would be a good idea.
Monks just need good itemization and they are set. They'll probably be a viable choice overall in BG:EE as PC or NPC.
I believe they're adding in a new sexy club to compensate for the lack of decent Druidic weapons.
Edit: so let me get things straight, in the original BG the Ankheg armour was non-magical armour with an AC rating of 1 when it should have been magical with an AC rating of 3 with a +2 magical bonus, thus giving it an overall AC rating of 1?
So in BG:EE they're now making it magical, which will in turn change its name to Ankheg armour +2 with an AC rating of 1 and won't be wearable alongside items of protections?
What's this talk of giving it an AC of 2? Is that according to the original pnp rules? Wouldn't it then be Ankheg armour +1?
Agh!
(Doesn't matter if D&D, AD&D, 3e, or whatever, did it first. It will still play like .. Hunters).
That's nice to hear.
As I pointed out in the 'fixed' forum, An AC 1 Ankheg Plate would actually be an +1 enchanted Ankheg Plate according to the AdnD Rulebooks. Unenchanted and therefore non-magical would be AC 2.
I'd prefer the item description to be updated to reflect it being +1 magical enchanted, but well,
non magical and AC 2 works, too, I guess.
To be back on topic:
Druids are great and definitely not unloved.
As mentioned altready they can wear the almighty Drizzt Scimitars (You don't have to kill him, pickpocket will work, to obtain Icing Death).
In BG2 they receive at least two Druid specific staffs (3 with the one from Cernd).
Also, I highly suspect, that some magical kind of Clubs will be added to BGEE, which will be an upgrade compared to vanilla BG.
In TotSC, there is a +3 Staff a Druid can obtain pretty early. And there aren't many non-cursed +3 items.
I'd favour changes in spells and powers would be the answer. The Icewind Dale druid, for example, kicks @$$. Static charge (oh my god, what a spell, all the way to Heart of Fury) and improved and more interesting shapeshifting powers. The Druid of these games is an offensive threat as well as a defensive support caster. He does not replace the cleric, either: Clerics still have superior armour access, tanking spells and the devastating turn undead. Nothing like chunking vampires with the click of a button!
A final change I'd recommend (more for BG2:EE) is PLEASE FIX THE STUPID DRUID XP TABLE
There is nothing to fix about the Xp table.
It is conform with ADnD rules.
The Druid levels extremely fast in the beginning, witch is very nice in BG1.
Later (beginning somewhere in BG2 territory) it slows down significantly, but not before having access to all the good spells.
Finally, when he reaches Lv 15 he gets a HUGE boost in spellslots (at which point he has more Lv 7 spells than a cleric with same Xp and higher LV) and starts to gain levels appr. at the speed of a mage.
That's a bit of an up and down, agreed, but I like it.
I agree with you that more shapechange forms similar to the IWD Druid would indeed be nice
@DJKajuru
Charm Animal is available via low level spell.
Tracking is more of a Ranger thing, imo.
Ideally I'd like to see it tweaked somehow. They are drastically weaker than clerics or anyone else for that matter for like 1.75mil XP. It's absurd. It single handedly cripples fighter/druid multi-class. It's why Jaheira is bottom tier NPC for BG2. Even Cernd ends up better because he doesn't have to wait +3million XP to finally progress into epic druid levels.
I'd argue that Jaheira tops Cernd at ervery single point in the game.
I played her through whole of the BG saga. The point, when she finally reaches Lv 15 Druid hasn't really that big of an impact. Just because she is such an OP melee monster before already. I tended to leave most of her spellslots unused by then anyway.
Besides all classes gain HLA at the same point (appr. 3 mill), if it is that what you mean by epic druid levels?
In summary, compared to a cleric, the druid will lead early on, in mid BG2 the cleric will get pole position to be switched to druid again by start of ToB. In the end both are equal in power.
And, honestly, doesn't make this difference it the more interesting? At least I feel this way
I for one don't like the equal level scheme in 3rd DnD edition. Makes it simpler, yes, but also more boring.
That's one of many reasons why I love 2nd edition so much. But that might just be me.
The differences between the classes are already interesting enough. I don't need an arbitrary antiquated rule making it so one class is significantly behind another one for a really, really, really long time.
I love druids. I argue all the time they are way better than people give them credit for. Cernd is actually pretty awesome if you utilize him right. Dropping in and out of his 8 or so shapeshifts per day to re-Iron Skins himself then hulking back up to werewolf again is pretty awesome. I just wish they weren't so gimp for a significant portion of the game.
It might work for PnP but its simply horrible for a videogame.
Your info on gaining HLA isn't correct. In my current playthrough (appr. 3.8 mill xp, that's 1.9 on the Druid part) Jaheira already has two Druid HLAs.
I always take Jaheira, I once had Cernd, and I played twice as a Druid PC.
I can't say I felt gimped at any time in the whole game, concerning the druid class, even between level 13 to 15. And even as a multiclass.
I guess it seems to be more of a theoretical problem looking only on numbers and sheets.
Actually playing this class feels very satisfying though. And throughout the game.
Oh and I wouldn't say Cernd is weak. Jaheira is just a bit more powerful :P
But maybe I'm just a Jaheira fanboy
Yes lets leave out abilities that conform to the rules because of a game that has some of the most irrational hate ever and isn't even in the same genre, cause that makes perfect sense.
As for the topic, all the classes play really strong if setup right, both spell and gear wise.
I've played a no-kit bard through BG 1 that was the main tank for the group, he was a beast and became even more so in BG 2 when Elven Chain appeared!
Druids in BG 1 (Stupid Fighter/Druid aside) are also extremely powerful if used right, only thing that really showed them up was the ever so sexy drow cleric, otherwise PC Druids easily surpassed the other NPC clerics.
Only class I've never been fond of was the ranger, aside from dual-wielders (They get two points for fee) they seemed like watered down Fighters/X builds, sure rangers lvled faster, but they just ended up with less abilities, but even then I usually just chalked it up to my playstyle and moved on.
This is all pre-kits btw, Kits tend to change dynamics a lot, for example I love the Archer kit for Rangers, makes them extremely lethal!
I always install the tweakpack component that gives Druids the Cleric's xp and spell progression table but:
By following this board I see that many people consider that the Druid's faster level progression is an advantage of the class, so I wouldn't like it to disappear. I think I'd prefer a Druid xp table where they would always be 1 level ahead of Clerics with the same amount of experience.
1) You think implementing arbitrary rules from PnP -- a completely different medium -- is a good idea for a commercial videogame?
2) You want a sidekick over which players have limited control, one which will require constant micromanagement, and that can't be changed easily, if at all? Not to mention terrible AI pathing, which is all but guaranteed given the limitations of the original engine.
3) You want what would be, essentially, a 7th party member because the game's not easy enough?
Is that about right, bright eyes? If so, I'm doubly glad you're in charge of jack and ****.
And let's not pretend anyone but the hardcore makes secondary genre distinctions. They don't. Games like Diablo, Baldur's Gate, Warcraft, and Dark Alliance are all "fantasy" games.