Complementing the Canon Party: A In-depth look at the PC
Dragonspear
Member Posts: 1,838
I've been sitting here trying to decide who I wanna run through the Canon Party with, since I've never actually done it.
Although I'm currently running a fighter/mage, since I'm stuck rushing to get Coran, I'm skipping most of the side quests to just do after I get him and I've noticed that's left me rather, underpowered for the areas I'm in.
This makes me wonder, what IS the best compliment to the Canon party of Baldur's Gate:
Historically that was:
Imoen - Thief -> Mage at 7
Khalid - Fighter
Jaheria - Fighter/Druid
Minsc - Ranger
Dynaheir - Invoker
Then in BG2 you have:
Imoen -> (Post spellhold)
Minsc
Jaheria
Since the entire concept of the Canon party of BG1 was met with the first characters you were likely to run into, (well not completely since Xzar and Montaron likely get into a fighter around Nashkel, thus making you pick up Minsc and Dynahier), this makes me believe that the Canon for BG2 would likely include Aerie and Anomen.
So are party looks as follows:
PC
Yoshimo -> Nalia (Maybe) -> Imoen
Minsc
Jaheria
Anomen
Aerie
This means we have a really strong group of casters, using either Imoen or Yoshimo gives you plenty of thief as well. If you use Yoshimo though you're rather light on Arcane power until spellhold and the return of Immy.
Also, with Minsc, Anomen and Jaheria, you have a magnificent set of a Melee wall.
This leads me to wonder whether or not the actual PC would likely be either a Bard or a Fighter/Mage. I can't really think of any points in BG1 where you need a cleric over a druid (although they have such a better spell selection overall), but you easily have cleric taken care of twice in BG2.
The other issue I see is that the best Candidate for Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power is Aerie, so how would that work with a F/M PC? Would you just go after early Elven Chain Mail or Robe of the Good Arch Magi?
As usual thank you in advance for all your responses.
Although I'm currently running a fighter/mage, since I'm stuck rushing to get Coran, I'm skipping most of the side quests to just do after I get him and I've noticed that's left me rather, underpowered for the areas I'm in.
This makes me wonder, what IS the best compliment to the Canon party of Baldur's Gate:
Historically that was:
Imoen - Thief -> Mage at 7
Khalid - Fighter
Jaheria - Fighter/Druid
Minsc - Ranger
Dynaheir - Invoker
Then in BG2 you have:
Imoen -> (Post spellhold)
Minsc
Jaheria
Since the entire concept of the Canon party of BG1 was met with the first characters you were likely to run into, (well not completely since Xzar and Montaron likely get into a fighter around Nashkel, thus making you pick up Minsc and Dynahier), this makes me believe that the Canon for BG2 would likely include Aerie and Anomen.
So are party looks as follows:
PC
Yoshimo -> Nalia (Maybe) -> Imoen
Minsc
Jaheria
Anomen
Aerie
This means we have a really strong group of casters, using either Imoen or Yoshimo gives you plenty of thief as well. If you use Yoshimo though you're rather light on Arcane power until spellhold and the return of Immy.
Also, with Minsc, Anomen and Jaheria, you have a magnificent set of a Melee wall.
This leads me to wonder whether or not the actual PC would likely be either a Bard or a Fighter/Mage. I can't really think of any points in BG1 where you need a cleric over a druid (although they have such a better spell selection overall), but you easily have cleric taken care of twice in BG2.
The other issue I see is that the best Candidate for Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power is Aerie, so how would that work with a F/M PC? Would you just go after early Elven Chain Mail or Robe of the Good Arch Magi?
As usual thank you in advance for all your responses.
Post edited by Dragonspear on
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Comments
With 3 arcane casters in BG2 you have a tough fight for who gets the Robe of Vecna, Aerie for fast healing and debuffing in battle, Imoen as your main offensive caster, or yourself... you never know when you might need to toss up an instantaneous stoneskin or invisibility to keep from seeing the game over screen.
I try not to reload, so my main would have the Robe of Vecna, although I tend to use F/M and Bards for melee starting in the middle of BG2 and ranged before that.
Bards are pretty awesome. We have a thread about bards around here somewhere. Anyway, they're pretty darn handy and can pick up a lot of slack letting the rest o the party really specialize on what they do best.
Paladin in BG1, with a kit in BG2
Imoen & Yoshimo > Yoshimo > Imoen
Jaheira
Minsc
Aerie
(rotatable slot for NPC quests), eventually filled by Sarevok in TOB. Sarevok is an important storyline character so it makes sense to include him. We'd be going for a long time with just a 5-person party though.
On a second run-through it makes sense to try a more exotic class for the PC. Replace Aerie with Keldorn so that the party still has a Paladin. In that scenario the PC must really be a mage. I think playing a Fighter in BG1, kitted into a Kensai in BG2, dualled to a Mage at level 9, makes sense.
Both parties lack of a really strong tank, and in the first game especially, this is a role a PC can fill like no other.
I like Bards in BG1 because it allows you to keep Imoen as a straight thief while having your PC back her up *and* cast all the CC spells you need, while Dynaheir or Edwin go for straight damage spells.
The advantage of Clerics over Druids is that Clerics get Silence really early, iirc, and this is a huge help in early Mage fights.
F/M and Bard are solid choices.
Cleric-Mage is pretty fun. (I prefer multi.) Lots of spells to choose from there.
I used the canon party for the playthrough I did this summer. Keldorn instead of Anomen but otherwise the same set up. My character was a ranger/cleric and ended up just slinging bullets or womping things with the Staff of the Ram the whole game and things worked out great. Aerie is all the buff-bot you could ever need, Imoen is all the nukey nukey you could ever need, and my guy, Aerie and Jaheira was more than enough divine spells.
Long story short, the thing the "canon" party needs most is a dedi archer or some sort of "elusive" character, the type of guy who goes in and out of battle to hit key targets unfettered.
As far as archer, I have some other things in mind regarding them and bards. I dunno I'll figure this out soon. Trying to reroll my current F/M to get rid of bow proficiency.
And @Jalily I agree with you about the romance thing. I just think with 2 how many good npcs there are, that is what was intended.
@Arkin that said I am looking forward to my future archer run (I'm playing modless atm hence no archer yet).
@Lemernis I really want to play one, but I already have Aerie so that seems like it would create problems.
I love Rangers but Archers .. I dunno. The damage is great, of course, but they lack any kind of utility. I'd love an NPC archer, but for a PC I find Archers incredibly boring to play. Every fight your options are just (a) click portrait then (b) click target. They're even less engaging with a decent AI script. Fair points, but in the first game she's got terrible DEX and lousy weapons. Also, I don't like putting casters in short range if I can help it, because then you're asking to get interrupted by trash mobs.
Anomen could be the second coming of Bhaal himself, but I still wouldn't let him in my party. Anyone who has ever read any of his dialogues knows why. :P
Well its either Anomen With Grand Mastery or making Minsc DW Flail/Crom Faeyr and bringing in Keldorn. Myself I'll prolly be dwing longswords or using a staff.
And you're right I should think outside the box.
You're right its not sorry.
I would have suggested fighter for the first game too, but the fighters tend to be less viable and less interesting as the series wears on.
For you, they'd also be the exact same kind of play style. I think the other threads you've got going about Fighter/Mage or Fighter/Cleric (?) could easily fit in well with the canon party. Fighter/Mage would probably be more fun for the whole series, because it gives you bigger and better options later on, ie lots and lots of utility.
Futhermore (other than buying ENDLESS amounts of Arrows) the Archer really is good all game long. Sure he might fall off a tad in ToB, but he'll still make an excellent scout (and can pre-buff with the cleric find traps before stealthing, then bring up imoen to disarm them). It also gives me a nice option for opening fights on my terms while reducing the numbers I have in Melee range and it doesn't carry quite the same risk as a middle of the pack backstab.
Although I'm not certain if she'll ever be able to touch Liches =( Might have to break out my longswords for those.
I love Rangers but Archers .. I dunno. The damage is great, of course, but they lack any kind of utility. I'd love an NPC archer, but for a PC I find Archers incredibly boring to play. Every fight your options are just (a) click portrait then (b) click target. They're even less engaging with a decent AI script. Fair points, but in the first game she's got terrible DEX and lousy weapons. Also, I don't like putting casters in short range if I can help it, because then you're asking to get interrupted by trash mobs.
Anomen could be the second coming of Bhaal himself, but I still wouldn't let him in my party. Anyone who has ever read any of his dialogues knows why. :P
Everything I wrote was in response to Dragonspear talking about what to be himself going off what he posted in the OP. Jaheira isn't a good tank in BG1 but Khalid is so he's covered there. Minsc is capable too if you give him the gauntlets of dex. The only thing the BG1 party is missing is a cleric and a dedicated thief (because there's no way in hell you can convince me Imoen is better off as just a thief.) Jaheira as the only divine spellcaster kind of stinks because as a dual-classed one with mediocre wisdom, she's overworked on the healing.
Honestly, I have yet to play as just a single-class cleric. Could be fun. I always end up multi-classing or dual-classing. Would be good for the BG2 party too though you'd probably want to drop Anomen for Keldorn or Mazzy. (Again, going off Dragonspear's envisioned party.)
ComplEment, complEment
Now do you have anything non-grammar related to add to the conversation or not -.-
I'm not even aware of which characters are in the canon party for BG2...
Now we come to BG2. If you went with the gnome, you have a lot of flexibility and can still woo Aerie. If you choose a human you can beef up by becoming a swashbuckler. Imoen can cover traps and locks and Minsc is a good scout. Your main should focus on detecting traps and illusions as those will be possible to do with heavy armor.
That still leaves you a bit short on thief abilities. Haer'Dalis will solve stealing and eventually he will get HLA traps. He'll also cover your magical needs untiI Imoen returns. I'd complete the group with Keldorn or Mazzy and maybe Yoshimo will keep Imoens spot warm for her. The only thing with this group that I don't find as "intended" is the fact that the main can't get a familiar without cheating.
@Dragonspear mentioned possibly using a F-M. When I finally do play the game again on November 30th, I'll be playing a multi Fighter-Mage. And I've been toying with the idea of having him "float like a butterfly, sting like a bee." If so, the he'd then use a combination of AoE spellcasting, the bow (or darts of stunning, which feels tempting to try), and slapping Ghoul Touch and Vampiric Touch.
More likely I'll simply combine spellcasting and melee with dual-wielded Katana and Long Sword.
I also thought about what is the most likely canonical party in BG2. The conclusion I came to is as follows:
In BG1 we have the Protagonist, Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc and Dynaheir.
In SoA I can see canonical party consisting of Protagonist, Imoen, Jaheira, Minsc, Aerie (Since she becomes Minsc's new witch) and Yoshimo (for his unique plot).
And in ToB Yoshimo's place is filled with Sarevok.
And so in my opinion canonical story involves Sarevok's redemption and a romance with Aerie (Personally I prefer Jaheira's romance but Aerie's one seems more happy end-ish) and. not sure about a canonical final decision though.
You still have 1 open slot.
Pre Spellhold
Jaheria
Minsc
Aerie
Yoshimo
Post Spellhold
Jaheria
Minsc
Aerie
Imoen
ToB (Full party achievement unlocked)
Jaheria
Minsc
Aerie
Imoen
Sarevok
Not to mention buffs from a cleric are a perfect thing for a canon party with edition that cleric can take on a roll of a tank together with Khalid. I myself on my first playthrough killed off Dynaheir and kept Minsc. Threw Dyna out of the party and took Branwel as I was invoker myself on first playthrough. So I can say that I passed with Canon party on that way.
Oh I definitely understand the cleric, ESPECIALLY in BG1, but to make up for it they have a ton of clerics in BG2.
If you want a pure cleric there is Viconia, if you want a heavy caster cleric you have possibly the best late game bloomer in game in Aerie, and if you want a melee powerhouse there is Anomen.
That being said I can easily see forgoing Anomen for something like a dwarven fighter/cleric though trading Grand Mastery for Dwarven saves/Con and better wisdom (and likely better strength if you're a min/maxer).
The other option would be to make a cleric/thief but you're stuck being a half-elf unless you actually like playing gnomes or half-orcs.
Take into consideration that I prefer mages as PC char so I didn't have "canon" party per say at start, I had Anomen as main tank, didn't have Keldorn and had Jan/Vico/Aerie in group for last spot. It mostly depended on who I was romancing.
In particular one thing I'm noticing is that Jaheria really isn't starting to cut it come Cloakwood, therefore you do need some sort of other divine caster. A cleric is obviously the better choice due to their wider spell selection, however a Fighter/Cleric (Dual or Multi) will share the same role as Jaheria, that of the de facto tank of your party. They'll likely be using a shield and be up front while your more warrior type characters at this point lay out a beat down.
This means our current party is as follows (Only including Canon AND WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS):
THARRRRRR BE SPOILERS UNDER HERE!
IF YE DON'T WANT THINGS TO BE SPOILED, STOP READING NOW!
Disclaimer: This is pre BGEE and not using BGTutu or BGT where some of the weapon proficiency gets screwy. Like Khalid being Dual Wielding Bastard swords.
[Spoiler]BG1/ToTSC
PC: Cleric of some sort (single, dual, multi)
Imoen: Thief, dualed mage at level 7, max traps first/locks second
Jaheria: Fighter/Druid, going to end up becoming tanky. (Chances are she'll be stuck with a sling until Durlag's Tower [Pre:EE when they add more weaposn] when you can get a +2 scimitar).
Khalid: Also will function as a low level tank in our party. He will be the lucky soul that gets to use Vasconia +2 and he will also use a shield for awhile.
Minsc: Truly the self-styled sword of the party. Our buddy is going to rock some Two-Handed Socks, especially once we get our friend here the lovely Spider's Bane.
Dynaheir: Just like Khalid and Jaheria tag team to serve together on the front lines to soak up damage, Dynaheir is like Minsc in that her role is to dish OUT damage. Expect to be filling up her spellbook with damage abilities in most every slot because that's what she is, a pure artillery bot.
Total Score:
Thief capable of everything we need her to do point wise and also a backup arcane caster
1.5 Tanks (Khalid/Jaheria)
1 Melee Chunker (Minsc)
2 Arcane Casters (Dynaheir and Minsc)
.5 Divine Casters (Not including our PC)
Ok so score for BG1 is definitely need something divine because we're seriously lacking in that department. Now lets examine the rest of the Saga to see what else we're getting.
BG2:
PC: Still some type of Cleric (Single, Dual, Multi)
Imoen: Third best thief in game (Yoshimo 1st, Jan 2nd, Imoen), 3rd best mage (Nalia gets a couple more spells but is a worse thief, Edwin is well, Edwin)
Jaheria: With the expanded set of druidic spells at your disposal, a greater weapon selection, and her stat increases she becomes an even better tank now. So that's where we're going to stick her. Right in front of everything else smacking things.
Minsc: BUTTKICKING FOR GOODNESS. Ok he's back and other than improved stats he hasn't changed much at all. Well except that little bit where Rangers now get 2 free points in dual wield giving us some more options for our hamster loving friend. More on that in a bit.
Yoshimo: A key part of SoA, it's assumed you run with your "friend" for awhile. Therefore we'll keep him and solve our mage needs.
That means for MOST of BG2 we have 1 arcane caster, trap bot, lock picker, melee chunker, tank and 2 divine casters. Since You will only ever have 4 of these at one time after you leave Chateau Irenicus, you are left with 2 open spots. Or more likely 1 plus a floater to do all the quests.
This does leave us with a problem. Until we get our good sister back, we are distinctly lacking in any sort of arcane power what so ever. Thus we have 3 options to bring with us.
Edwin: Sure he is the best mage in game, but unfortunately for us, Boo told Minsc that Edwin looks like dinner. And a Chunked by Minsc Edwin is not a very useful spellcaster.
Aerie: She is by far the best overall caster in game, having access to both schools and significant fun with her arcane and divine muscle. However that would give us another divine caster as well.
Nalia: Imoen light and unfortunately you'll want to dump all the gear you collected for Nalia onto Imoen when you get her.
Jan: Better than Nalia, makes his own gear, better thief than Imoen since you can allocate his points. Gains mage levels slowly as a result of his thieviness.
Throne of Bhaal Party:
Hey congrats you made this this far.
PC: Congrats again, you're still some sort of Cleric, by now summoning devas, flame striking and otherwise being a general badass. In fact you're such a badass cleric you went ahead to 23 possible wisdom (22 for gnomes) from all those attribute bonuses you've been gaining. Not bad.
Imoen: Still loyal and faithful as ever, just like a little sister.. And still maging things up to epic proportions (literally).
Jaheria: Tell me Jaheria, did you do a dance when you finally hit 15 as a druid?
Minsc: Now saying Buttkicking for Boo-ness. We fear he might have indeed taken one too many blows to the head.
Sarevok: Hey what's up bro, long time no see. Hey remember that time under Baldur's Gate when you were a level 15 fighter and your party still got their butt whooped by me. Ya I'm still going. But hey lemme give ya some soul and we can hang out like family.
Roll Call:
1.5 Divine Casters
.5 Tank (Yes Jaheria you're still taking the front lines with a shield now shush)
2 Melee Chunkers (Bookicking for Buttness and You Don't Phase Me Bro)
1 Arcane Caster (Hey its me, Imoen)
Trap Jockey (Check, thanks Imoen, you're a great sister)
Now as I said in another thread, my preferred weapon loadout for my party is
1 Sword and Shield
1 2h user
1 Dual Wield user
1 Primary Archer
your casters.
The good news is Imoen can also fill an archer roll easily inbetween spells so that's already taken care of.
We also have Sword and Shield taken care of in the form of Jaheria.
2h user we have completed in Sarevok, and Minsc (MAYBE!)
Obviously we're a caster cleric with all that tasty wisdom.
So what we're missing is someone to dual wield. Also due to Jaheria's weapon restrictions, we're missing a lot of the cool blunt weapons this game delivers and Minsc does already start with 2 points in 2 weapon fighting. The way I see it we're left with a few options for that last permanent slot.
Haer'dalis: Requires some babysitting, but gets the job done with his 2 shortswords. Also is specialized in them.
Valygar: he goes along with our Minsc Ranger buddy, but again, he's going to require some serious micromanagement to get the job done.
Korgan/Mazzy: Not bad, both are going to take some work to get their though. Korgan in particular could be good with his axe proficiency. (Aside: Korgan with the Axe of Unyielding Main Hand, Minsc with the Silver Sword, Sarevok with the Ravager. Got Insta-Death?).
Anomen: Definitely works and is a beast in Melee, but like Korgan and Mazzy its going to take him awhile to get him up to par in the DWing department.
But..........wait a second! What if (Lightbulb) there was a 2h weapon that was decently powerful, obtainable early, and class restricted. What if this weapon already complimented the NPC's class.
That's right, my suggestion is to fill out the party with "By Torm" himself, good ole Keldorn. Level 12 is relatively easy to get in SoA, and so you can start dual wielding flails or flails and maces by 12, by 18 (depending on how much of watcher's keep you do or how many NPC side quests you do, you can have this just before chapter 7), you can also add Hammers to the list.
Well now suddenly we have quite a devastating party.
Jaheria: Up front with one of the many magical scimitars and a shield, also likely a club in her offhand.
Minsc: Backing her up with Flails, Maces or Hammers
Keldorn: CARSOMYR IT IS IN YOU! (Conviently ToB upgradable) [Added benefit, make use of all those crossbows you find]
Sarevok: The rest of the 2h weapons, especially Halberds
Imoen: Pew pew pew
PC: Oh ya about this, now that I gave you all that I suppose I should explain my grand player character idea.
Some of you probably guessed this by now, but my grand plan for the PC is to turn Her/Him into Aerie on steroids. Aerie has 16 Int/16 Wisdom, you're PC can have 20 Int, 23 wisdom. Not to mention who doesn't want to be blasting things into oblivion with their PC instead of an NPC. This means your PC gets to make use of Amulet of Power, Robes of Vecna, Staff of the Magi, etc.
Minor Downside: You will be trying to split the Robes of the Good Arch-Magi three ways in BG1. With the firepower at your disposal you should be able to handle it (Equip the robes on yourself cause your character is selfish, make Imoen memorize armor, give Dynaheir the second ring of wizardry you get and memorize Shield.
Anyway that's my grand plan, turn my main character into a Half-Elf Mage/Cleric multiclass since I can't stand Gnomes (even though they'd arguably do it better).