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D&D Lore updated to 5th edition rules.

Hey guys,
wandering around candlekeep.com, I found an interesting post. Some of what follows was news to me, so I thought I'd share it on these boards, as some of you might be interested in the subject. It's basically an update to the lore concerning many deities and areas of the FR following the introduction of the 5ed rules.
All credit goes to Irennan, and the original post can be found here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20957

[...]
The Sundering basically consists of Ao rewriting the tablets of Fate, bringing back many gods, and separating Abeir and Toril again.
By rewriting the Tablets of Fate, Ao seals the various gods power and portfolios and establishes new rules to avoid further divine conflicts and the cataclysms that they brough (in fact the gods are supposed to be more distant now).

The various deities invest power in mortal chosen, trying to expand their influence before Ao could finish rewriting the tablets. However this gamble goes badly for most deities, except for a *large* group of deities that people believed gone, but that actually managed to return thanks to Ao (and other contingencies, in some cases), mostly to how they were in the 1370s DR. Most of those chosen are no longer such as of the 1490s, as their deities have withdrawn their power.

Cyric no longer is the god of murder, Bhaal returned claimed that portfolio, Myrkul returned and claimed the portfolio of death, while Kelemvor currently is the judge of the dead. Leira and Mask also returned (Mask has returned through the ascension of Drasek Riven, though), so Cyric mainly is the god of lies now.

Other deities that have been restored are Helm, Tyr, and Azuth (we know that the latter is back, but that story isn't complete yet). The elven, dwarven and halfling pantheons are back to how they were. The drow pantheon is back too, with the difference that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are no longer enemies now, and might be working together.

About Shade/Myth Drannor: during the Sundering the Shadovar attempt to kill the various chosen created by the gods and drain their power. They also attempt to drain the mythal of Myth Drannor. Larloch also attempts to drain the mythal and the wards of Candlekeep, in order to become a god. Elminster, Storm, Alustriel and Laeral and the Srinshee battle at Myth Drannor against Larloch and the Shades (these two are not allied), to protect the Weave and the elven city (yes, Laeral and Alustriel are alive: Khelben had foreseen all the mess of the Spellplague and various cataclsysms and had ordered Laeral to prepare to prevent the Wards of Candlekeep from being used by ill-intentioned individuals. Larloch however managed to absorb them as a part of his plan to ascend to godhood). Chaos ensues: the Srinshee sacrifices to take the energy that Larloch had drained from the wards and infuse it in the Weave; Elminster kills Tanthul and Shade crashes on Myth Drannor, severely damaging the city, but not destroying it. Currently most elves are in Semberholme and other settlements, with a little community still in Myth Drannor, gathered around the Tree of Souls (which was saved by a group of Baelnorns who had been informed of the imminent cataclysm by the Srinshee. Those balenorns are still there, guarding the Tree).

Other major events, mostly regarding geographic changes are:
-The Plaguelands are ''healed'' , the Earthmotes fall, the Sea of the Fallen Stars reforms, the Underchasm is filled.
-In Waterdeep downshadow is abandoned, and Laeral becomes open lord.
-Mulhorand and Unther return from Abeir, and so do their deities (the Mulhorandi ones rule as avatar; in Unther, even Gilgeam and others who had ''died'' long before the Spellplague returned. Apparently a reincarnated Gilgeam guided his people on Abeir). However a part of Tymanther remains, albeit the dragonborn have been driven away by the returned Untherites, whose goal apparently is to completely wipe what remains of Tymanther and the dragonborn civilization.
-Maztica is also back.
-Evermeet currently touches three planes: Toril, the Feywild and Arvandor, and can be physically reached from Toril (as in, you can go there with a ship).
-Halruaa managed to shift to Abeir before the Spellplague, and now is back.
-Lantan re-emerged, but most of the gnomish wonders are gone.
-Luiren is no longer flooded.
-IIRC, at some point during the Sundering, there was a movement of living Red Wizards that was trying to take back Thay. I don't know what happened to them, but I guess that their efforts led to the situation described in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide (i.e. the living can advance in rank within the Red Wizards).

[...]
Tiamat tried to invade the Realms. The Archomentals tried to invade the Realms. All major demon lords have been summoned in the Realms, because Lolth was trying to conquer the whole Abyss, just after having been soundly defeated by Mystra when she tried to take control of the Weave (all of this happened in less than 10 years).


The big chunk on Shade/Myth Drannor is kinda common knowledge by now, because it was described in the Herald (one of Ed's latest books), but most of the rest is new to me. I find it funny that WotC decided to just ignore 4ed and basically go back to how things were during the 3/3.5 era. I guess someone got fired.
Of course, one thing stands out to any BG fanatic: the Lord of Murder returned. I guess the mortal progeny he spawned before the ToT served him well, after all.
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Comments

  • MalicronMalicron Member Posts: 629
    Moradin said:

    Of course, one thing stands out to any BG fanatic: the Lord of Murder returned. I guess the mortal progeny he spawned before the ToT served him well, after all.

    Yeah, that's covered in one of the first 5e boxed adventures, "Murder in Baldur's Gate." Essentially, Abdel Adrian (seriously, fuck that guy) and the teleporting thief from SoA and ToB are the only two living Bhaalspawn, and this idiots kill each other, finally completing Alaundo's prophesy.


    A good reason to keep Imoen alive in your playthrough, eh?
  • PteranPteran Member Posts: 388
    Bhaal is back because my PC ascended and took his place ;)
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028

    Bhaal is back because nobody stays dead in fiction.

    Really, with how cheap death is, especially in the Realms, it's amazing Kelemvor has a job at all.
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    I wonder where a lot of this information is, and how much will be making its way to sourcebooks. Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide doesn't go into depth about much of this, although it at least covers that many previously dead deities have returned.

    Not that I disbelieve any of it, I just want to read the sources. :)
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963

    Bhaal is back because nobody stays dead in fiction.

    Really, with how cheap death is, especially in the Realms, it's amazing Kelemvor has a job at all.
    Not to derail but I voted to kill Jason Todd back in the day and then kind of stopped following Batman soon after. I was surprised that a character that the fans had voted on to die that was clearly no kidding dead was back as the Red Hood, and that not even the will of the fanbase was enough to keep a character dead.
  • toolargtoolarg Member Posts: 179
    edited May 2016
    Would have been a lot easier for them to just say "listen, 4ed never happened, okay?". Would have made more sense too.
    As it stands now it just reeks of comic book plots: "a hero died, but he wasnt really dead, he was in another dimension, but then his clone came back, but it wasnt really his clone, it just had his powers, but then the clone died and his soul travelled to the real hero who was now dead but he wasnt really dead AGAIN, he was just pretending, hiding in a basement" and on and on and on.
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    edited May 2016
    Can someone explain what is the latest status on Azuth? Thought he was dead but apparently it is now some kind of Lovecraftian "that is not dead which can eternal lie", etc.
  • MalicronMalicron Member Posts: 629
    Big Red "Reset" Button: One of the many perks of the office of Overgod.
  • MoradinMoradin Member Posts: 372
    edited May 2016
    MacHurto said:

    Can someone explain what is the latest status on Azuth? [...].

    Azuth: deity not responding.
    It's a bit confusing. In 4ed, Asmodeus became a deity by absorbing the divinity of Azuth, but since with teh Sundering, his divine rank was stripped from him, it is plausible that this divine essence coalesced to give (re)birth to Azuth. As Irennan pointed out in the post I linked, the story is not complete yet. It might be settled in future novels/sourcebooks.

    @BelleSorciere, not to defend the guy, but Ed Greenwood is known to answer questions pretty often on Candlekeep. If there's anyone that can forge the realms on a whim, it's him.

    @JumboWheat01, I agree with you. I also think some of the changes in 5ed Lore were needed (Cyric had too much power, you needed other human evil deities), but others were completely unnecessary. I feel Tyr should have stayed dead, as should have Bhaal. An exception could have been made for Myrkul, because he was, after all, the Lord of the Dead. But methinks, to go from a dead god to God of the Dead (major divinity), stripping Kelemvor in the process, has not been well thought.
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    Oh no I am not questioning his veracity at all, I am wondering why most of this information isn't in rulebooks yet. I'm grateful for this information.
  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    Moradin said:

    But methinks, to go from a dead god to God of the Dead (major divinity), stripping Kelemvor in the process, has not been well thought.

    That's the problem with sweeping resets, unfortunately. They're rarely thought out, just done en masse in hopes for the best.
  • BladeDancerBladeDancer Member Posts: 477
    Malicron said:

    Moradin said:

    Of course, one thing stands out to any BG fanatic: the Lord of Murder returned. I guess the mortal progeny he spawned before the ToT served him well, after all.

    Yeah, that's covered in one of the first 5e boxed adventures, "Murder in Baldur's Gate." Essentially, Abdel Adrian (seriously, fuck that guy) and the teleporting thief from SoA and ToB are the only two living Bhaalspawn, and this idiots kill each other, finally completing Alaundo's prophesy.


    A good reason to keep Imoen alive in your playthrough, eh?
    In the end it won't matter, Viekang will come after her too if she survives ToB.
  • MalicronMalicron Member Posts: 629

    Malicron said:

    Moradin said:

    Of course, one thing stands out to any BG fanatic: the Lord of Murder returned. I guess the mortal progeny he spawned before the ToT served him well, after all.

    Yeah, that's covered in one of the first 5e boxed adventures, "Murder in Baldur's Gate." Essentially, Abdel Adrian (seriously, fuck that guy) and the teleporting thief from SoA and ToB are the only two living Bhaalspawn, and this idiots kill each other, finally completing Alaundo's prophesy.


    A good reason to keep Imoen alive in your playthrough, eh?
    In the end it won't matter, Viekang will come after her too if she survives ToB.
    True, but based on her ToB ending, he'll need to get through an entire thieves guild, capable of challenging the Shadow Thieves, to do it.
  • IrennanIrennan Member Posts: 54
    edited May 2016

    I wonder where a lot of this information is, and how much will be making its way to sourcebooks. Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide doesn't go into depth about much of this, although it at least covers that many previously dead deities have returned.

    Not that I disbelieve any of it, I just want to read the sources. :)

    I got all the info from the SCAG (all the mentioned deities&portfolios--on a side note, it's not simply many deities that have returned, basically all of them are back--, Thay, Unther/Tymanther, Evermeet, Halruaa, Lantan, Luiren etc. All of that is in the first chapter, the general overview of everything; the updated racial pantheons are in chapter 3); novels (mostly ''The Herald''; Azuth's being discussed in Erin Evans' novels; the plaguelands and other Spellplague effects are ''healed'' in ''The Reaver''; Drasek Riven becomes Mask in ''The Godborn''); and Ed Greenwood's own word over Candlekeep (which, as he expicitly said, is canon unless WotC decides to overwrite it, by his original contract with TSR inherited by WotC). For example, the alliance between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun has been explained by Ed, but doesn't appear in printed sources (although their return does).

    Oh, and the ''chain apocalypse'' at the end of the post is described in the latest D&D adventures, starting from end 4e (with the first mentioned Lolth story), all the way to the present time (with yet another Lolth story...).
    Post edited by Irennan on
  • IrennanIrennan Member Posts: 54
    MacHurto said:

    Can someone explain what is the latest status on Azuth? Thought he was dead but apparently it is now some kind of Lovecraftian "that is not dead which can eternal lie", etc.

    They gave away Erin Evans' novels. Now we know that they will end with Azuth freeing himself and Asmodeus losing power.
  • IrennanIrennan Member Posts: 54
    edited May 2016
    Moradin said:

    MacHurto said:

    Can someone

    @JumboWheat01, I agree with you. I also think some of the changes in 5ed Lore were needed (Cyric had too much power, you needed other human evil deities), but others were completely unnecessary. I feel Tyr should have stayed dead, as should have Bhaal. An exception could have been made for Myrkul, because he was, after all, the Lord of the Dead. But methinks, to go from a dead god to God of the Dead (major divinity), stripping Kelemvor in the process, has not been well thought.

    Kelemvor has not been stripped of his portfolio. It's been splitted. Myrkul has death, Kelemvor has ''the dead''.

    The whole story surrounding Tyr's ''death'' was so ridiculous and far fetched that it simply *had* to be undone. That was just stupid, in all honesty. There was a lot of OOC/far fetched stuff at the end of 3e, when it came to deities (mostly about Mystra/deties of magic, the Triad and the drow pantheon), you could really tell that WotC merely wanted some deities gone, and that they were trying to force some changes on the Realms, whether they fit or not (in the same way that we can tell that they are now doing an in-universe reboot. They're no different, both are set of events/novels purely aimed to force given changes on the setting). I'm happy that all that stuff has been reverted.

    WotC reverting 4e in-Universe wasn't a big surprise to me. I still can't understand why the designers would destroy so many iconic elements that the fans of the setting held dear, and in such a (IMHO) poorly thought, brutal, and sometimes handwavy manner on top of that (heck, even the authors of the Sundering books have expressed their joy about the Realms gaining back what was lost). They removed much of what people enjoyed about the setting, I can't see to what purpose. To cater to those who didn't like the setting to begin with?
    Post edited by Irennan on
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    Long dead deities are back and kicking?
    Does that mean Moander, the handsomely amorphous gentleman of rot and decay, is also back? Please tell me he's back? Pretty please, with tentacles on top? WotC ought to have him back a long time ago! Moander is Love! Moander is Justice! Moander is Life! M-O-A-N-D-E-R ! M-O-A-N-D-E-R ! :heart:
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    Irennan said:



    I got all the info from the SCAG (all the mentioned deities&portfolios--on a side note, it's not simply many deities that have returned, basically all of them are back--, Thay, Unther/Tymanther, Evermeet, Halruaa, Lantan, Luiren etc. All of that is in the first chapter, the general overview of everything; the updated racial pantheons are in chapter 3);

    This is somewhat misleading as they don't really go into detail as to the hows and whys deities are back, just that they are. This is similar with the returned nations as we get very brief explanations with little to no depth.
    Irennan said:


    novels (mostly ''The Herald''; Azuth's being discussed in Erin Evans' novels; the plaguelands and other Spellplague effects are ''healed'' in ''The Reaver''; Drasek Riven becomes Mask in ''The Godborn''); and Ed Greenwood's own word over Candlekeep (which, as he expicitly said, is canon unless WotC decides to overwrite it, by his original contract with TSR inherited by WotC). For example, the alliance between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun has been explained by Ed, but doesn't appear in printed sources (although their return does).

    Oh, and the ''chain apocalypse'' at the end of the post is described in the latest D&D adventures, starting from end 4e (with the first mentioned Lolth story), all the way to the present time (with yet another Lolth story...).

    This helps, though. Thanks. :)
  • IrennanIrennan Member Posts: 54
    edited May 2016

    Irennan said:


    This is somewhat misleading as they don't really go into detail as to the hows and whys deities are back, just that they are. This is similar with the returned nations as we get very brief explanations with little to no depth.

    Why is that misleading? In my post I simply reported what the SCAG/other sources say. I didn't say how the deities came back (except that Ao was behind it, and we know that he was from the novels and from what the authors and Ed have said many times), nor I gave any in-depth explanations.

    The part about the chosen gambit not going well is from one of Ed's answers: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=7#464851, and it's further clarified in his novel ''Spellstorm'', in which Elminster says that the real winners of the the Sundering are the gods who were thought gone, as they are now back, while it didn't excatly go well for the others (for example, Bane lost power, Shar and Lolth had their plans destroyed). The new chosen losing their status at the end of the Sundering is in the SCAG.

    The explanation that I gave for Mystra's return (or her having never died) is from ''Elminster Enraged'', ''The Herald'', and ''Spellstorm'' again. In Spellstorm we also get to know that Mystra's currently sharing the Weave with a group of deities, Eilistraee among them, and that many souls of powerful spellcasters (including Mystra's chosen) are actually ''living'' within the Weave, where Mystra can tap their memories and experiences. That status is called ''Voice in the Weave''. New Mystra also appears to not simply be Midnight, but much more. Sort of like all the 4 versions of Mystra coexisting in a single being.

    The explanation for Bhaal's return is in ''Murder in Baldur's Gate'' (an adventure). It's also in the SCAG.

    The portfolios are explained in the SCAG. All the stuff about Halruaa, Evermeet, Unther (and Gilgeam) and so on is indeed explained in the SCAG (although not all of that is found in the first chapter, some is in the chapter about the Sword Coast--like Laeral being Open ''Lord'' of Waterdeep, or Evermeet touching 3 planes and so on. The book is indeed slim, but it's not merely a list of what is back and what isn't.

    As I said, Eilistraee&Vhaeraun being friends is Ed's lore. http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=21#476469 It's also here http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=22#476639 (and before you say that Ed said that the lore in the last post isn't official, the part of it that I've mentioned in my post is, given that their return is in printed sources, and as said here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=22#476688 )
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    edited May 2016
    Edit: Mostly I didn't think SCAG is as informative as you said it was. Flipping through it now I did find a few more details that I missed on my first reading, however. But like, Evermeet being back is in SCAG but there's no real explanation of how or why it was back. Similar with the return of several gods. Bhaal's return isn't really explained beyond saying it happened in Baldur's Gate, for example.

    Anyway, I did not intend to come off as skeptical about any of these details - I accept that they're all true - I just wanted to know where they were described and I had already found SCAG rather unsatisfactory in terms of explaining the updates to the setting. Thank you for providing that information.
  • IrennanIrennan Member Posts: 54
    edited May 2016

    Edit: Mostly I didn't think SCAG is as informative as you said it was. Flipping through it now I did find a few more details that I missed on my first reading, however. But like, Evermeet being back is in SCAG but there's no real explanation of how or why it was back. Similar with the return of several gods. Bhaal's return isn't really explained beyond saying it happened in Baldur's Gate, for example.

    Anyway, I did not intend to come off as skeptical about any of these details - I accept that they're all true - I just wanted to know where they were described and I had already found SCAG rather unsatisfactory in terms of explaining the updates to the setting. Thank you for providing that information.

    I agree with you that the SCAG is unsatisfactory as a CS book, as it merely provides the status quo--and a few details on it--w/o giving in-depth explanations.. I think that most of the changes are to be blamed on ''The Sundering'' (continents coming back surely is a consequence of Aberi and Toril separating again--in fact, at some point the narrator says something like ''the Sundering happened, and everything is back to how elves, dwarves and long lived sages remember it was a century ago''), and the gods returning is due to the new Tablets of Fate and to Ao's decision (although this is not said in the book, and we only know it through other sources).

    The ''how'' of Evermeet is in chapter 2 (I think). There they say that the Island touches 3 planes. They don't explain how it fell back to its place, tho.

    At this point, with how WotC is handling the FR, I wouldn't expect any real explanation beyond what we already have (''The Sundering'' did it). I'll just look out for Ed's books, since he is known to sneak various FR lore in his books, and has been explained quite a lot of stuff in his recent works (and answers over CandleKeep). Even though you can only get a short passage or two, when it comes to novels, given that Ed is really going out of his way to include more info that would otherwise not be relevant to the story.
    Post edited by Irennan on
  • MalicronMalicron Member Posts: 629

    Malicron said:

    Malicron said:

    Moradin said:

    Of course, one thing stands out to any BG fanatic: the Lord of Murder returned. I guess the mortal progeny he spawned before the ToT served him well, after all.

    Yeah, that's covered in one of the first 5e boxed adventures, "Murder in Baldur's Gate." Essentially, Abdel Adrian (seriously, fuck that guy) and the teleporting thief from SoA and ToB are the only two living Bhaalspawn, and this idiots kill each other, finally completing Alaundo's prophesy.


    A good reason to keep Imoen alive in your playthrough, eh?
    In the end it won't matter, Viekang will come after her too if she survives ToB.
    True, but based on her ToB ending, he'll need to get through an entire thieves guild, capable of challenging the Shadow Thieves, to do it.
    Unfortunately (even to my disappointment), Imoen would need to canonically get killed off somehow during ToB because her ending in the game is strictly non-canon, because it contradicts the storyline of two novels that are set a couple years after SoA and ToB. Imoen's ToB ending states that before she started her own thief guild in Neverwinter, she traveled with Elminster and Khelben Blackstaff for years, and stole his staff, which shouldn't be able to canonically happen no matter how hard you try to argue the case because Khelben died in 1374 DR, and Elminster got himself trapped in the Nine Hells in 1372 DR trying to close a portal to the Nine Hells. Even if it were possible to say if it is canon, where was she when Elminster got trapped in the Nine Hells, and how come she wasn't able to help Elminster close the portal to the Nine Hells unintentionally created by the Shadovar from the city Thultanthar, and prevent Khelben Blackstaff Arunsun's death? Also, no sourcebooks hint that there is a secret guild in Neverwinter, or for that matter, that the Shadow Thieves operate in in Neverwinter.
    (quote spoilered for sake of space)
    All true, and as Abdel is the cannon Bhaalspawn (really, f*** that guy) any CHARNAME would by definition be non-cannon, or personal canon/an alternate history at best. Since we're already engaging in this sort of thing, why can't Imoen have survived and been in some way unable to prevent these events? That said, I admit that this is all EXTREMELY non-official, fan-fic like speculation on my part.

    Sorry for the derailment all.
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    Question: Are tieflings cool again or are they still draenei who bathed in tomato-sauce?
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    edited May 2016
    @Buttercheese

    Draenei in SCAG can have different features and don't all have to look the same. The story explanation for so many tieflings looking like "Draenei bathed in tomato sauce" was that apparently Asmodeus used his power to make all extant tieflings descended from him, but at the time of 5e, maybe half of all tieflings are not descended from him and can have different fiendish features and appearances.

    I thought this had been posted in this thread already, but it's been posted often enough over the past few days that I am probably misremembering where I saw it.
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