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Neverwinter Nights

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  • ahhyepahhyep Member Posts: 114
    What do you mean I'd need to change armor?
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    You suffer arcane spell failure when wearing armor.
  • ahhyepahhyep Member Posts: 114
    Oh yeah, I guess that's fine. I kind of want it to be the easiest fighter I can be that has spells such as haste etc. Does the game have high AC cloth armor/robes?
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    edited May 2016
    ahhyep said:

    Oh yeah, I guess that's fine. I kind of want it to be the easiest fighter I can be that has spells such as haste etc. Does the game have high AC cloth armor/robes?

    Yep, for that matter you have to rely on three things:
    1- dexterity (with light armor you get full dex bonus to AC), also there are several magic items that increase this attribute.

    2-tumble skill - every five levels of this skill gives you an extra bonus to AC, which makes a big difference.

    3- magic armor and items : rings of protection are cummulative with amulets of natural armor and magical armor.:smile:
    For example : Bob has dexterity 16, tumble 10 , bracers of armor +2, ring of protection+2 , amulet of natural armor +3 , that's a 3+2+2+2+3=22. (Which is the same of ac -2 in 2nd edition)
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    I was going to suggest that BG players would probably prefer NWN2 to NWN, as it has a much richer set of characters to play with and supports larger parties - but then I saw you say you preferred solo runs, and that leans much more strongly to the original NWN game design, so carry on ;)

    I will say I preferred the (under-rated) Shadows of Undrentide campaign to the original, which felt very so uninspiring I don't think that I ever completed the second chapter. This is an alternative campaign that starts at first, and not something to take a PC into after the first game.

    Much of what you will see online about 'builds' for 3rd edition actually apply to 3.5 though, so be sure of your source material before following someone else's plan! A lot of the lessons and inspiration for 3.5 edition builds will still hold for 3rd, just make sure you know the actual rules and bonuses you will be dealing with.
  • Sids1188Sids1188 Member Posts: 166
    edited May 2016
    Hmm, something that never occurred to me in all my time playing NWN (I don't think I ever took less thann 10 dex), but taking 8 dex gives -1 AC, right? But that's dodge AC which doesn't apply if you get attacked by many enemies or a flat footed or whatever. Would than mean that you would actually have better AC when attacked from all sides? Hard to imagine how that works in real life. I suppose you'd actually have to be really good at reacting to the incoming attacks, you just choose to dodge right into them :smile:

    Sort of like how someone who's always wrong about everything would actually have to be pretty smart, to know the correct answer and say something else. Or a psychic that was always inaccurate must have a "gift", otherwise they'd occasionally get lucky.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    The rules say you loose your dex "bonus" if flat footed. -1 is a penalty so you shouldn't loose it.

    I'm not sure it actually works like that in NWN though.
  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    edited May 2016
    I'M THE PERSON YOU NEED

    For starters, I would advise against OC->HotU as suggested above unless you want to die of boredom before HotU starts giving you encounters designed for your level. You will finish OC at level 20 and HotU's beginning is intended for early-mid teens. Besides, they are separate stories, so playing them as one makes no sense really. For best experience play OC separately and SoU+HotU separately.

    Next, look through nwn.wikia.com to understand the basics. There is a lot of info and some can be contradictory or not obvious at first read, so feel free to ask me should you need clarifications. I haven't played it in quite a while, but I still remember most of the game mechanics' intricacies.

    Now, to the build suggestions

    In NWN you are limited to three classes, so you have to choose wisely.
    I'm really looking for a melee powerhouse with a lot of great defensive spells and potentially sneaking/backstab if that's important. I see all these crazy builds online I don't know anything about. Looking for a very high melee damage output character that can take a lot of hits and can move pretty quickly.
    That'd be a Bard. Pure(-ish) Bards are super strong in melee, primarily because their Song and Curse Song are effectively a +9 AB/+9 (+2 AB and +7 AC via Song, -2 AB and -7 AC via Curse Song) AC boost when maxed out, although most commonly you wouldn't want that pure of a Bard and would get +7/+7 (+2/+5 -2/-5), which is ludicrously strong as well. The most common cutoffs for Bard are 16 (level 6 spells and +5/-5 AC on Curse Song, +5 AC on Song), 20 (Full spellbook and access to Lasting Inspiration which makes your songs last x10 longer) and 23 when you receive an Epic Feat and 26 when you receive another Epic Feat.

    If you want to deal a lot of melee damage and have a sneak attack option, Blackguard will be your next most obvious choice of class. A Blackguard's sneak progression is slower than that of a Rogue, but they receive other things that synergise with the Bard. It is important to know that the Darkness spell allows you to deal sneak attacks and it has no somatic component, meaning that you can cast it while wearing full plate. Bards also have Ultravision in their spellbook, allowing you to fight in Darkness without penalties. Speaking of casting spells, you will want to pick up the Still Spell metamagic in order to be able to cast spells while wearing armour and with a shield equipped. You won't be able to cast level 6 spells that way because stilled spells occupy a slot higher than ordinary ones, but to be honest Bards don't really get any useful ones at level 6. Well, Ice Storm is okay but it's hardly worth walking around naked. Anyway, the synergies: Blackguards receive Dark Blessing at level 2, which gives you a bonus to your saves based on your Charisma, and you will need it rather high as a Bard by definition, and they get turn Undead which allows you to get Divine Shield and Divine Might, respectively giving you bonus damage and AC based on your charisma modifier (the duration is equal to it as well). You will need at least 4 levels of Blackguard if you want Divine Might and Divine Shield as you can only pick the feats on a Blackguard level. Feats are given every 3 levels, so plan accordingly. They also get some pretty decent summons for the levels at which you receive them. Sneak attack is given at level 4 and improves every 3 levels thereafter.

    Now for the third class. Your third class depends on what you want to achieve. If you want to be more of a frontline damage dealer, then Red Dragon Disciple is a no-brainer. It gives you +8 Strength, +2 Cha, +2 to Con, +2 to Int, +4 to AC and some immunities, most notably to Fire. I've played through SoU+HotU with a Bard/BG/RDD and I can tell you it's super strong.

    If you prefer being tanky, Pale Master provides a lot of bonus AC and immunity to critical hits (and some other immunities as well). Note that PM is a low BAB progression class, so it's best to keep it for the epics. You need 10 levels of PM to get crit immunity.

    If you like the feel of sneak attacks, you might want to invest into Rogue or Assassin. Rogues get Evasion and get some extra feats, Assassins have a few nifty spells.

    I hope this helps :D
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited May 2016
    I think the OC should be played through at least once. It's not brilliant, but it probably won't kill you of boredom the first time round. It will give you the background for some of the characters in HotU anyway.

    The beginning of HotU is written so that it can follow on from either the OC or SoU, and encounters scale with level (I was level 18, not 20, when I finished the OC anyway).

    Since the game isn't particularly difficult, don't worry about fancy builds - a single class anything will do fine. I took a cleric through the OC. Since Find Traps spell also removes them, and you can open locks with your trusty hammer, you can do without a Rogue.
  • ahhyepahhyep Member Posts: 114
    Heh. So looking at this seems so confusing but I see these here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G_uB13jUzU

    and

    http://nwnecbguild.forumer.com/topic/2354371/Paragon-of-Pain-Bard-8-RDD-10-Blackguard-22#.VzTZIRUrI1g

    Seems kind of crazy, not really sure how to build but it looks right up my alley... don't know anything about building or when to switch classes etc. Much more confusing then BG2
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I think that the usual build you are looking for is Bard/Barbarian/RDD. That gives you a brutally high STR due to the stat boosts from RDD in combination with Berzerk. I am not sure what the level combination is, but it is something like 3/10/7.
  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    I was going for Bard26/BG4/RDD10 when I was playing it, finished HotU as Bard16/BG4/RDD10 or thereabouts.
    BG22/Bard8/RDD10 is solid if you don't want to bother with spellcasting and pretty much limit it to displacement and darkness.
  • ahhyepahhyep Member Posts: 114
    Ok, so Bard26/BG4/RDD10 sounds good, how long does it take to cast all the buffs and stuff? Do I go 1-26bard, then 1-4bg, then 1-10rdd or do I mix it up?
  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    You will have to mix them up of course. Something along those lines:

    1 Bard Power Attack Curse Song
    2 Bard
    3 Bard Cleave
    4 Bard
    5 Bard
    6 RDD Knockdown
    7 RDD
    8 RDD
    9 RDD Blind Fight
    10 BG
    11 BG
    12 BG Divine Might
    13 Bard
    14 Bard
    15 BG Divine Shield
    16 Bard
    17 Bard
    18 Bard Weapon Focus
    19 Bard
    20 Bard
    21-26 RDD
    27+ Bard

    Feats you will want to have

    Lingering Song
    Still spell
    Lasting Inspiration

    You can also go the Devastating Critical route. It's an extremely strong feat that allows you to instantly kill an enemy on a crit with a DC of 10 + 1/2 character level + Str mod. It required power attack, cleave, great cleave, improved crit in your weapon of choice, overwhelming crit and 25 strength, so as a Blackguard you already have half the feats required for it. Naturally works best with weapons that have a wide threat range, most commonly a scimitar.
  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    As for buffing up, that depends on your equipment.
    Things like mage armour bull's, eagle's, haste, gmw can be replicated via gear.

    Things that can't be replicated:
    Displacement is a short-term buff that makes opponents miss 50% of the time (or 25 if the have blind fight). Greater invis does the same for longer, but it's a higher-level spell.
    Infravision is needed if you are planning to use darkness. War cry is an aoe fear that also grants you AB and damage.
    Ghostly visage/ethereal visage provide minor concealment (10 and 25 respectively), protect against low-level spells and grant DR.
    Silence is self-explanatory.

    These are pretty much all the spells that you will need. There are some other good spells, but they are mostly situational.
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    Er
    Blackguard does require you to be evil, didn't you say you wanted to be Chaotic Good?
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    I wouldn't recommend the Bkg build for a first time player as it is very feat starved and requires extreme planning.
  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    You can't be serious. Blackguards are probably the least feat-starved characters in the game, and the only planning they require is landing BG3 and BG4 on feat selection levels.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @iKrivetko I am serious my friend. You clearly have a very different idea of feat-starved if the build you posted above is not such.
  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    Feat-starved means that it won't have space for important feats without sacrificing other important feats. The only things you have to sacrifice here are a couple of Great Strengths in epics. It's a different matter if you go for Devastating Crit, but I'm not suggesting it as the primary route as it's overkill for pvm.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    edited May 2016
    @iKrivetko Feat-starved for me means there is little room to manoeuvre or pick extra feats. With Bard/blackguard that is very much the case ;) With Bard/Fighter it's very different.
  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    That's called well-optimised. If you have too much room for unnecessary feats, you are doing something wrong.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @iKrivetko Optimisation for the original campaign? You can't be serious.
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    One thing I haven't seen said:

    AC is even more determinative in NWN than in BG. Once you get AC over 30, pretty much nothing in the game can touch you in melee, not even dragons, giants, and demons.

    There is plenty of armor and equipment to get there in the base games, which are Monty Haulish to an extreme.

    You don't need any spells to protect yourself in melee, unless you are playing a single class mage. Stoneskin is nice, but it's total overkill in defense if you get that desired AC30+.

    Buff spells are nice, but they wear off, and there are so many of them to cast, it can get very, very tedious to keep casting them over and over, again and again, as you play through the game. And, if you gave your character good melee stats at character creation, buffing those stats with spells like Bull Strength is nice, but usually overkill.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Quite. You should just build whatever takes your fancy. "Optimising" is an unnecessary waste of time that turns playing into a chore.
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 676
    Dragon battles are awful in NwN 1, they are far too weak in general.

    In Nwn2 they are much more powerful, although I'm sure you can solo them with a good enough build, I haven't tried.
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    Due to my current interest in playing paladins, I've started a run of the NWN OC with a paladin. Paladins are definitely an underdog class in the NWN games. Their implementation is kind of bad, and they are much, much weaker than BG paladins, and weaker than regular fighters in NWN.

    You get immunity to fear and disease, but not poison or mind-affecting. You don't get innate detect evil or more importantly, protection from evil. There's a smite evil that can only be used for one attack per day, and all it does is add your charisma bonus to your attack roll and your level to the damage, IF it hits. You can take some feats to use your turn undead ability to buff your attack bonuses for a small number of rounds, but feats are at a premium since you don't get fighter bonus feats. You eventually get four levels of divine spells, but they come late, and they don't make up for the loss of bonus feats and sacrifice of physical combat stats at lower levels.

    Speaking of stats, playing the class in NWN also gives you trouble, because you need to raise charisma as high as possible and wisdom to at least 14, in addition to the physical combat stats. The only thing you don't need to raise is intelligence, but I want that at least 12 for the extra skill point per level. So, my low level paladin is taking a -1 AC penalty from having 9 dexterity, which he will raise to 10 as soon as he can to at least get rid of that very telling penalty. Meanwhile, he is getting hit a lot.

    I'll eventually take Champion of Torm levels to help out with the feats situation. I've splashed one level of cleric so he can get Protection from Evil spells and some more healing to survive low levels. (Lay on Hands is kind of pathetic at low level.) At higher levels, he will at least begin to benefit from adding his charisma bonus to his saving throws, which is one of the many reasons charisma has to be high to get much benefit at all from the class.

    Most NWN paladins wind up mixing in a lot of levels of either cleric or fighter (fighter is probably better, but I'm not powergaming) to get some real power.

    It's definitely going to be a challenge run with a gimped character. (All paladins are gimped in NWN if they stick to the class instead of merely splashing it.) But I'm having fun with it. At least I don't have to stop every five minutes and cast a hundred buff spells like with my cleric and druid characters.
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 676
    NwN 2 nerfed them even more I thinkxd
    I don't play Paladins much though, but divine might and divine shield is nothing to scoff at I think.

    Blackguards also got shafted in NwN 2. Your strongest summon is a mighty dire rat, which by the point ideally 16+ levels isn't even worthy to tank a single hit from the enemies you face in that level range. And there is no epic feat to improve fiendish servant either. In the first game at least they got a Vrock.

    I don't know much about smite, except I think it looks really terrible in both the games.
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    I had some fun NWN2 builds that featured paladin levels, mostly for the divine feats though. One of my problems with the 3E series of games is that that was very little reward for staying with a 'true' class through to level 20 and beyond, although it could be a reasonable (non-optimal) choice for some spell-casting classes.

    IIRC, Paladins had a slightly better time in Shadows of Undrentide, which I think was an unfairly overlooked expansion. It is not as long as the original campaign, but I think it played better.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Yes, SoU was certainly better than the OC, but not as good as HotU, which I guess is why it doesn't get talked about so much: neither very very bad nor very very good.
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