Dual Class + Kits
Sanguinius
Member Posts: 4
In BG1 when dual classing Imoen i could dual her into a specialist mage as well as a normal mage but any dual class combo ive tried in BG2 was either a standard mage or class and could not choose a kit. as there were no kits in bg1 i cant tell if this is supposed to happen.
so basically in the new BG:EE if we decide to dual class a char will we get a choice of kits/specialty mages for the 2nd class or just regular class choices.
so basically in the new BG:EE if we decide to dual class a char will we get a choice of kits/specialty mages for the 2nd class or just regular class choices.
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I could be wrong however. I would be very happy to be wrong.
That said, I'm curious to see how they decide to play this one. If it frees up kits for anything you dual-class into, time to make that fighter 7 / assassin 8 I always wanted to try.
Creepy colors everywhere.
Being able to kit into a specialist mage should still be an option, even if they decide you can't dual-class into, say, Cleric of Talos.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/5484/so-there-are-4-multiclass-combinations-allowed-by-the-rules-but-not-by-baldurs-gate
- Character models.
BGII character models? Seriously? It will look wrong in the BG1 universe. The ONLY reason they are doing this is for dual-wielding ... you are seriously ruining that much immersion just for dual-wielding? It's sad. And this is coming from someone who does enjoy dual-wielding. The moment someone comes out with a mod to put them back, I'm taking it.
- The HUD.
I'm excited to see that they ARE doing more than keeping it looking like BGII's a la TuTu, but it still looks awfully BGII-ish in art style. It looks somewhere between BG1 and BGII. Kind of a fail. But again it's better than leaving it as BGII so I'm not crying too hard about this.
- "Oops no more sling strength bonus."
It was an oops that they went with. There was never a *conscious* decision to remove it, it was just like "oh right, that's gone now ... well we're just gonna keep it like that, it was dumb anyway."
- Spell incantations, audio and visual.
Oops they look like BGII now. Oops they say latin words now, like in BGII, when casting. We gonna fix it? Nah...
-Entangle is going to suck now.
Not the end of the world, but annoying.
- Thieving Abilities, Weapon Profs
Now this is just a fear because we don't know anything for certain. But I'm fairly certain of this. They are just going to throw in all the BGII thieving abilities, with no regards to how much thieving points we get per level. Also, the whole Hide in Shadows/Move Silently thing being separate was acceptable for BGII as you had a lot of points ... but in BG1 that will be a HUGE pain in the neck having to deal with those being separate stats when you have limited points from limited levels. I expect thieves to be very difficult to deal with come BG1 due to thieving points being off from the original game. They will be more difficult to make good.
Weapon Proficiencies ... are we really just taking the BGII profs? Seriously? They changed the system to be so utterly specific because you had *so many* levels! Are we really going to separate two-handed, bastard, long, and scimitars now? BG1 was balanced with its weapon profs because you didn't have so many level ups. Now you're going to be extremely limited on your weapon choices, which is just awful. The BGII system for weapon profs worked great for BGII, but it will be utterly annoying for BG1, mark my words.
- Weapon mastery.
Another fear because I'm not certain. Is getting beyond 2 pips going to be utterly useless now, just like in BGII? That was so stupid.
- Are the kits going to be rebalanced?
This needs to happen. Otherwise, and this is *just* an example, Totemic Druid's summons could destroy anything and everything.
That said ...
+ Character speed.
Mr. Oster said that they DID fix the monster speeds to coincide with our characters. This is good because in BGII, all the BG1 enemies were ridiculously slow, which was fail. I was really surprised and glad to hear this.
So hopefully I will be dead wrong and my fears will be false. We shall see.
Which basically means they will be included in the data more or less (it is an actual request, and basically very easy to do), for us to have an option to use. There is a thread in the bug section for this with more info. They wouldn't really bother fixing something like that if they weren't adding the BG1 models in the data (unused at default).
It's also pretty silly to criticize for unknowns.
I agree it is pretty silly to criticize for unknowns. Which is why I specifically said with those three that they are merely "fears" and are "emotionally based" and as such should not be taken even half as seriously as the others, so please don't. Also I'm fairly certain the kits will be rebalanced, but I thought I'd put that there anyway.
Also, added a new wah wah accusation. Spell incantations.
@Mornmagor - Interesting, good to hear.
Outside of character avatars, the rest of the sprites are the same. Gibberlings, spiders, skeletons, townspeople, shopkeepers, ogre magi, etc. List goes on. Didn't change between BG1 and BG2 anyway.
I thought the character paper models for BG1 were awkward and clunky even when the game first came out.
Fixed
Yeah, it's cool to like BG2 models better, but the fact that you don't like the BG1 ones doesn't mean they're ugly. It's just your respectable opinion, while ours is different.
The "i don't like it, so it's crap" attitude makes me a sad panda.
@Quartz this is of course my opinion
See? Option, not forcing you to use "ugly as sin" models or anything. See how nice we are?
Apologies if i read your posts out of context, but i'm drunk and ready for a fight! o_O
My guess is that BG:EE won't try and retrofit weapon proficiencies and thief skills. They'll just add new weapon drops and increase your points per level, because that's easier and more "fun."
I spent the weekend marathoning an unmodded vanilla game, then jumped back into a Tutu game last night. The effect was jarring and somewhat unpleasant.
Tutu plays very differently from vanilla -- to the point where i think its arguable that they're still, at heart, the same game. And although Tutu includes ToB-style "quality of life" UI improvements and allows some great mods (in my mind there's nothing better than SCS and Spell Revisions), it also runs roughshod over the charm of the original.
My biggest fears center around:
- Ridiculous walking speeds
- Too many weapons/ weapon proficiencies
- Brokenish thieving skills/ points per level
- Insanely imbalanced Tutu-style spawn points and group spawns
From what I understand, BG:EE is incorporating the work of 1PP, so I'm not worried about paper dolls and avatars. 1PP isn't perfect, but it's as close as you can get to the original artwork.
Back in topic (!) -- I think a player should be able to dual from a pure class into a specialist mage, as you could in the original game. I don't think they should be able to go from kit to specialist, though. Restrictions and limitations are what make design good and gameplay fun, and made the original Baldur' Gate what it was.
I kind agree on thief skills. I'm cool with them adding Detect Illusions, because as is in BG1 default thieves can do everything well and adding that alone would at least make them give up doing EVERY LAST THING perfectly. But if they could figure out a way to roll Hide in Shadows/Move Silently back into just "stealth," I'm all for that. Not for balance reasons, but because it's stupid. It's one of the few things I think 3e got wrong, which considering they changed them back into a single skill for 3.5e, I think WotC agreed.
You can totally skip Move Silently, btw. It's pretty pointless only because even if you fail your secondary stealth checks after you're already stealthed, you have enough time to get back behind a corner and wait it out til you can disappear again. You shouldn't need more than a round in order to land any backstabs.
Also agree with the Tutu spawns, but that was THAT MOD, so I don't see that happening with BG:EE. I suppose I'm okay if they add it simply because I feel a lot of areas in BG1 are pretty empty without it, but Tutu went way overboard and I've had it spawn groups atop of groups atop of groups just from me walking back and forth.
BUT: I totally disagree with weapon proficiencies. I prefer them the way they are handled in BG2, even in the BG1 engine. I don't think my guy should be able to swing every last sword type excellently by the end. It bothered me two-handed swords were the same proficiency as longswords. (It's also why Elves are totally broken as fighter types.) If they eliminate weapon STYLES, I don't think I'd mind, but really I like the fact there's actually a reason to pick up any given type of weapon and it diversifies the game. Makes everyone just a tad more flavorful, simply because every last fighter being just as good with every last sword was silly.
@Mornmagor - your post made me laugh, good job. Outside of humor, I really appreciated the 'The "i don't like it, so it's crap" attitude makes me a sad panda.' comment.
@Brude - Yup! And your fears about the walking speeds; as @sandmanCCL said, they've been actively working at making sure things are all good there. The concern was brought up a while back and the devs certainly responded.
Also; "Tutu plays very differently from vanilla -- to the point where i think its arguable that they're still, at heart, the same game." Easily one of the best quotes on this entire forum.
And I totally get what you're saying about TuTu getting all the good mods. Makes me sad not having, like, the NPC banter pack. I'm looking forward to BG:EE in that I'll finally be on the same platform as everyone else and I won't have to worry about compatibility issues due to my refusal to use TuTu.
And yes, "I think a player should be able to dual from a pure class into a specialist mage, as you could in the original game. I don't think they should be able to go from kit to specialist, though." is exactly my opinion on the matter as well. 1 kit/specialization per character. Dual-Classers are already lucky enough they even get one, so. :P
Going to go point by point just for the sake of easier discussion. Actually I think I'll start with @Quartz comments first and piggy back yours onto his where the apply.
(PS: How is it the 4 of us always end up sharing countering opinions in so many threads. You 3 are awesome but I've noticed that @SandmanCCL and I side together a lot and you both do as well. It's honestly awesome, I'm always a fan of multiple perspectives per problem.)
Character Models
This one I admit little knowledge of. To me the sprites of BG1 and BG2 look very similar and I've never compared them. If they want to change the model on the inventory screen I'm fine with that cause I preferred the elegance of the BG2 inventory screen.
The HUD
Ok time to go off on a different course. I'm agreeing with @Quartz here (actually come to think of it I think most of this thread will be agreement with you but not to the same degree as you). I prefer the BG1 HUD to the BG2 HUD period. That said, the screenshot didn't look too bad as a hybrid, but I'd like to see minor touchups although I can't really point out where. Something just feels off.
"Oops no more sling strength bonus"
I never even realized some of them had strength bonuses (Except for I think sling of seeking +5 mentioned it. Or was that Sling of Everard). Personally, I'd like them to fix this where its supposed to apply and I'd also like to see if rather than giving composite longbows a base increase, if they could give them an increase based on the actual current strength bonus of the character.
Spell Incantations, audio and visual
Gonna have to agree with @SandmanCCL here. I prefer the BG2 ones to the BG1 spells.
Entangle is going to suck now
Eh, I've honestly completely forgotten about it on my current BG1 run since I'm so used to BG2, IWD and IWD2 where it was regular AOE not enemy specific. Entangle is just web lite anyway :P
Thieving Abilities, Weapon Profs
I REALLY REALLY hope they come up with a way to fix this so that we don't have to use the SOA system. I'd personally like to see them use the system from the Icewind Dale 1 game, which isn't quite the massive groupings that BG1 Had. Thieving abilities I'd rather see them revert to BG1 and just add set traps and detect illusions. (I.e. hide in shadows covers EVERYTHING stealth). Detect Illusions you really won't need points into until higher levels, although I wouldn't turn down more thieving points with a maximum amount of them that you could dump into any one ability at the start or even per level (say no more than half in one ability).
Weapon Mastery
Should go back to BG1/IWD1 period. If certain enemies have Grand Mastery in a weapon and that buffs them, oh well but its worth it for fighters actually being worth something than a, "Cool got 7/9/13, time to dual class" class.
Of course I also think that fighter/multi classes should be able to reach grand mastery since as it stands right now fighter dual classes can even after they've started taking levels in a new class. (Gives Anomen a glare and shakes fist).
Are the Kits going to be Rebalanced
I'd have to check all of the AMAA (I know its there but I don't have the time, energy or patience to go sift through it), but they did say they were looking into some kits and talking of trying to figure a way fix them for BGEE. In particular I think it was referring to the Totemic Druid, but they were also asked if they were going to fix shapeshifter in BGEE and they said they'd like to but it might be at later levels so as to not allow them to giggle through the early game.
Character Speed
@TrentOster has already said they fixed this problem so he had to sacrifice Imoen to a wolf in order to save his PC's hide one time.
Insanely Imbalanced Tutu style spawn points
And now you know why I'm playing regular BG1 even though I prefer Tutu in every other way. My party of Blade, Xzar, Montaron, Imoen died about 10 times trying to get to the FAI (as in the main character herself died). It was really bad and really aggravating. My bet is that this is something they've already looked into and tried to fix from Tutu although I have no proof that I can point to here. This is merely a hunch.
Overall, I'd say I'm still hopeful, even if I'm wary of the things that can go wrong, I haven't really seen anything that's truly started setting off alarm bells for me. The screen shot UI while bad, still showed promise, and they gave themselves time to further fiddle with it (like the meddling wizards they are), by delaying until the 30th of Nov. Personally, I'm not even that worried about the 30th of November, although if they do it again I'll definitely be asking for a refund at that point and possibly reporting them to the Better Business Bureau here in the States. But I don't think they're going to do that based on the feedback from the Beta testers and regularly keeping on top of Trent's twitter.
Back on Topic: I think you should only be allowed 1 kit but you should be able to pick whether its the first class or the second. I know at some points I've gone so far as to say heck kits for both, but as I thought back on that in retrospect it could only detract from the game itself. I think a kit on either end though would be an RP improvement.
It's always been an AOE root-spell. Are they making it single target for some reason? I'm confused. I don't get it. How is making it so you can get MORE out of fighter at lower levels supposed to help make them worth sticking with rather than dual-classing away from?
The more weapon types there are, the more incentive to stick with fighter because they get proficiencies the quickest. It's the only way you'd be really good with multiple weapons by the end of the saga. Grouping them up again BG1 style makes it so there's less incentive to stick with the class because you'll be able to use more things excellently, sooner.
Or are you referring to the Mastery tables, as in the bonuses granted per pip you stick in any given weapon type? It won't matter much for BG1 unless they raise the level cap. I like how people are always quick to point out grand mastery in BG1 "getting nerfed" but forget you can't actually reach 5 pips in any given weapon type by the level cap. At character creation, you can't put more than 2 points into anything and only ever get 2 more points by the level cap. The "nerf" for high mastery is only 1 thac0/1 damage which, while nice, is not that big a deal to me. I don't even want to think about BG2:EE until we see what kind of product BG:EE is, you know? I'll worry about what they'll try and do with it when it's time.
I also think Anomen going beyond 2 points in a weapon type is an Anomen-only problem. I don't think a player made fighter who dual-classes to another class can progress beyond 2 pips in any weapon style unless they already had more than 2 in it. Not sure, though. Will have to test it later. I'm okay if Anomen is the only guy who can do it because hey more power to NPCs who can do stuff player-made characters can't do, but otherwise I agree it's kind of an oversight. Not a huge deal to me, but wouldn't mind if they "fixed" it.
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Kind of off topic, but I hope they decided to totally scrap the BG2 spells table and use IWD's instead. Makes druids more dynamic and there were a lot of bad-ass mage spells not represented. Plus, IWD games had the coolest looking effects on spells.
Entangle in BG1 only effected enemies. When cast it looked similar to sleep, you'd cast it at an area and then it would branch off towards enemies entangling them.
I really like the IWD spell list.
Good point but I'd still rather Grand Mastery actually meant something and turned into complete awesome.
Edit: Also one of the guys over in the solo run through no reload thread was doing a level 3 fighter/x conjurer (ended up berserker/mage cause of the kit system), but was able to reach grand mastery as well in Quarterstaves.
And actual proficiency wise I want the BG1/IWD1 Mastery Tables and the IWD1 proficiency table (slightly longer than BG1s, but still not always exclusive weapon at every turn like in BG2).
Good point about the grand mastery in QStaves. You could potentially hit grand mastery in BG1 ONLY by abusing dual-class. I hadn't realized that. The reason multi-class can't go beyond 2 points is because they didn't want multi-classed fighter/whatevers being better than regular fighters but they end up with more proficiency points so they'd actually be more competent due to grand mastery than just a regular fighter.
I wonder if it'd be possible to make it so you can't stick prof. points into skills beyond what your fighter level would allow. Meaning, you need 3 levels of fighter to hit 3 prof. points in any given skill, need 6 levels of fighter to hit 4, need 9 levels to hit 5. Would solve problem of multi-class guys not being able to progress to where they should without making them better fighters than a straight fighter and would balance lower level dual-classing somewhat.
On Weapon Profs - @sandmanCCL Surprisingly, I kinda agree with you there, re: 2handers and elves etc. I just think it's dumb for non-fighter classes to have to choose between slings and darts, or quarterstaves and and maces.
In the original game, there really weren't enough of those weapons to make such micro-specialization worth it. It also makes your party comps much less flexible, because you can't easily trade items between different characters of similar classes (eg: "Okay, I just got Spider's Bane so Minsc will wield that now and I'll give Greywolf's longsword to Khalid, giving them both a good upgrade.")
As I said, though, I think Overhaul with "solve" this issue by just dumping more items on the players. Which is a shame, because then it will turn BG into more of a gear progression/min max kind of thing than a story based RPG.
On Walking Speeds - @sandmanCCL @Dragonspear - It depends what Oster meant by "fixed." Part of the big charm of the original game, for me, is found in the low resolution and the slow walking speed.
People will think I'm crazy for saying this, but not being able to see far afield (lower rez means a smaller part of the map is visible at any given time) and taking a looong time to get anywhere makes every zone seem larger than it actually is, adds to immersion, and increases overall playtime (because it takes awhile to fully explore every map).
Granted, if you've been through these zones a dozen times, as most of us have, that can get a little tedious. So in that context, the BG2 runspeed is a good boon. You know where all the spawn points are, what encounters are where, and can zip around quickly and efficiently to maximize your playtime.
One is better for the veteran player, and one is better for the new player. If Oster and crew "fixed" the runspeed by giving everyone, party and mobs alike, the super-fast BG2-style speed, I think that will be a detriment to the game overall.
On Mob Spawns - I did a little research on that way Tutu spawns mobs.
It seems that the original BG1 engine actually scales spawns depending on the size of your party when you enter any given area. This is why, in the original game, you'll only run into a lone xvart or gibberling in the first few starting zones. It also randomizes whether mobs will spawn at all at any given spawn point. So in one playthrough, you might run across that gibberling right away, and in another he won't appear at all.
The BG2 engine, which Tutu uses, assumes you have a full party of six at all times.
Because of programming limitations, the maintainers of Tutu decided to fill every possible spawn point with the maximum number of mobs. This is why the area directly south of the Friendly Arm Inn is ridiculously difficult if you're a clothie PC and only have Imoen with you.
They also decided to make mobs spawn at *every* possible spawn point. This is why the area south of Beregost is overcrowded with hordes of hobgoblins, ghasts, ghouls, and gibberlings. And the mobs respawn every time you enter the map.
The only way to get around this is to install the Tutu "Spawn Randomizer" mod and turn down the difficulty. Doing that restores spawn sizes, and the number of spawns, closer to what it was in the original game. IMO, that's kind of cheap workaround, though. Fiddling with the diffculty slider just to get a workable game and behavior that the original did naturally isn't a great gaming experience.
The side effect to all this -- and this is one of the reasons I loathe Tutu -- is that it makes the game stupidly difficult and easier at the same time. Fighting off 12 gibberlings or a pair of dire wolves at level one is just dumb. But if you survive, you get an ton of XP. Multiply that effect across the first few maps and it's possible to get to higher levels much more quickly. I'm running a game now where I've just arrived at Nashkel and Imoen is already pushing level four -- and that's without doing much in the way of sidequests. It's stupid, but I'm playing it because the Avenger kit + Spell Revisions is, OMG, soooo much fun. =D
Anyway, I'm hoping -- please, please -- that Overhaul is modifying to the BG2 engine to work more like the BG1 engine did, at least as far as spawns are concerned.
@sarevok57 Couldn't agree more!
@Quartz Agreed, and thanks. I'd give a lot just to get the original Baldur's Gate with smarter AI (SCS, etc) and Spell Revisions and *nothing* else. Maybe the Item Randomizer too, just for novelty's sake.
I don't have any issue with duals getting this bonus over multis. Multi-classes can still reap the benifits of advancing both classes, which is enough for me.
Kitless classes should be able to dual into specialist mages. I always did in BG1 with Imoen. I've (many times) advocated unkitted first classes being able to dual into kits, which would work quite well for the few BG1 NPCs that can be dual - since they'll all be base classes. It'd make that process more interesting.
Entangle - Smaller radius in BG2 is that the issue? Never really thought much about entangle, the debate seems to be raging on here though!
@SandmanCCL
I might be mistaken, but I'm fairly certain that in terms of Thac0 and weapon proficiencies, Multi class characters ONLY gain Thac0 and weapon proficiencies from their most melee oriented class.
For example:
A fighter/mage will have the Thac0 of a fighter, ignoring any thac0 bonuses they might get from their mage levels. They also only get weapon proficiency when their fighter lands on a 3/6/9 etc level. My current F/M is only level 4/4 atm though so its going to be awhile before I can confirm that but I'm fairly certain that's how it works.
A thief/mage will have the Thac0 and gain proficiency at the rate of a thief. Same as above
a FMT, will gain the Thac0 and proficiency of a Fighter.
So honestly they actually get a lot fewer proficiency points at all to use. Especially if you're one of the two tri-classes.
@Brude
Yes its the BG2 walking speeds, but most mobs have been scaled to be relatively equal with that speed. I think wolves are slightly faster (like they're meant to be) and I believe bears are slightly slower. I don't have the beta so I cannot confirm these.
By the time I got to Jaheria and Khalid, my paladin was level 2 and Imoen was level 3. From those two areas alone. That's pretty ridiculous, but what bugged me most about it is that doing that with a caster class would be impossible without completely cheesing the mechanics.
One of the things I liked about the original game is that the difficuly level and XP gains from Candlekeep to Nashkel ramp up on a smooth arc, and no one class feels *that* much more powerful than any other.
In contrast, Tutu feels like a hodgepodge of independent choices with little to no regard towards actual gameplay and design.
Personally, I would like to see kits be unable to multiclass or dual class period ala the Barbarian or Sorcerer or Bard...
....but if they are going to allow dual classing with kits then you should be able to go from a base class to a kit. The BG2 method ensures that the kit portion of a dual class is the one that the character spends less time and energy developing when it should be the kit that is the focus. To me if you are allowing kits in a dual classing scenario, the kit should be only allowed on the back end (or at least available either way) so that your character spends the majority of the xp, time, and focus on the kit rather than the general class.
The only kits in BG1 were the speciality wizards so once you add in all the other kits BG1 doesn't really give any direction on how to handle the other kits, but my secondary suggestion of base class to kit would encompass the traditional BG1 ability to go from base class to specialist mage.
It will be interesting to see how they implement this part of the game.