What the heck is Caelar's deal? (SPOILERS, very probably). Is she really as terrible as she seems?
Arsene_Lupin
Member Posts: 181
So I'm not really very far into Siege of Dragonspear, but for the most part I was really enjoying the expansion. And then I met Caelar Argent, the Shining Lady, and everything just kind of fell apart.
Villains are important in any narrative, but they are especially important when they're the driving force of a narrative--so it seems very strange to me that Caelar doesn't really seem to be able to withstand even the most cursory of scrutiny.
First, she introduces herself with this little gem.
Everything is wrong with this.
Okay, so the takeaway from this is that there were two Dragonspear Wars that were... somehow more noticable than the other dozen or so wars that are constantly flaring up in the sword coast. And a bunch of people were killed by demons. So... Caelar wants to resurrect all those random people, who are long dead? And was able to raise an army of like-minded folks? Really? And how, exactly, does invading and torching all of the nearby villages, towns, cities, etc., help further that goal?
Even assuming she's so stupid that her plan is to invade hell, it's hard to swallow that she thinks the best way to reach hell is to just march along the sword coast.
I mean, really? Really?
Please, please tell me I'm missing something. Please tell me Caelar gets some development later on that retroactively gives her some kind of coherent, viable plan. Because that speech at the bridge was nothing but nonsensical posturing and tired cliche--so much so that I'd have though it intentional had the speech options not played it completely straight. I'm really, really hoping the script does something to salvage this later on, because this kind of poorly written nonsense is pretty hard to overlook.
Villains are important in any narrative, but they are especially important when they're the driving force of a narrative--so it seems very strange to me that Caelar doesn't really seem to be able to withstand even the most cursory of scrutiny.
First, she introduces herself with this little gem.
"We stand poised on the cusp of a new age. Someday, all of Faerun shall look to this moment and say, 'Then. That was when everything changed.'"Which is 100% pure, stock bad-guy meaningless nonsense. Which she follows up with the equally trite "we're not so different you and I," speech.
"It may seem that we stand on opposite sides, but it is not so. Our goals align closer than you know, and there is much we could achieve together."At this point in the encounter, I was groaning. But it was the last bit that really made me facepalm--when she outlines her goal/motivations. I mean--really?
"In our lifetimes, two Dragonspear Wars have ravaged this land. Fiends set out from the castle, bringing ruin to the land and dragging thousands of innocent souls into the inferno before being beaten back for a time. Those who follow me lost wives and husbands, parents, children, friends... But what was lost can be restored. I will bring those tortured souls back to Toril."So much is wrong with this.
Everything is wrong with this.
Okay, so the takeaway from this is that there were two Dragonspear Wars that were... somehow more noticable than the other dozen or so wars that are constantly flaring up in the sword coast. And a bunch of people were killed by demons. So... Caelar wants to resurrect all those random people, who are long dead? And was able to raise an army of like-minded folks? Really? And how, exactly, does invading and torching all of the nearby villages, towns, cities, etc., help further that goal?
Even assuming she's so stupid that her plan is to invade hell, it's hard to swallow that she thinks the best way to reach hell is to just march along the sword coast.
I mean, really? Really?
Please, please tell me I'm missing something. Please tell me Caelar gets some development later on that retroactively gives her some kind of coherent, viable plan. Because that speech at the bridge was nothing but nonsensical posturing and tired cliche--so much so that I'd have though it intentional had the speech options not played it completely straight. I'm really, really hoping the script does something to salvage this later on, because this kind of poorly written nonsense is pretty hard to overlook.
Post edited by Arsene_Lupin on
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Comments
If you knew your loved ones are being held and probably tortured in hell *right now*, would you know one moment's peace? Makes sense that you would try to help then in any way possible.
As for this being all there is to Caelar, maybe you should finish the game first?
And how does rampaging about the Sword Coast randomly killing people help?
And let's not even get into how tired the old "obviously manipulative badguy tricks righteous noble-type to do bad stuff" cliche is.
In her big intro, Caelar raised just about every red flag there is.
Big SoD and ToB spoiler...
I read she'll side with demons to get what she wants. And her alignment is Lawful Good...
If there was ever anything "political" in SoD, it is an attack on religious fanaticism.
Blind and single-minded devotion to a goal without care for the ramifications is the running theme and is fully embodied in Caelar's reveal in the final chapter. I would suggest finishing the game.
As for the writing, Caelar's motivations are more nuanced than any of the other villains in the series save Irenicus (Sarevok: kill a whole bunch of people and hope that makes me a god. Melissan: kill a whole bunch of Bhaalspawn and hope that makes me a god). A character who has deceived herself into believing her motivations have good intent is at least an interesting change from the enemies we're used to facing.
Finally, the historical crusades were pretty bloody - the real crusaders slaughtered everyone in Jerusalem [see Kingdom of Heaven]
The real world crusaders where far more vicious and irrational than the ones in SoD.
While what she is doing may be noble on paper, it remains very stupid to anyone who knows about the setting. You don't upset the status quo the multiverse is built on, even if a hundred or so innocent souls get dragged to hell as a consequence. She overestimates her power and her ability to get things done (she's only level 15), and puts her faith where it doesn't belong. She's also blinded to most of the worst of her order's methods.
Personally, I liked the fact that Caelar was a hero who just had a different agenda than you. I liked the fact that here you were trying to save your own arse from various threats while this lady was raising an army to storm the gates of hell to save the innocent damned. And it really frustrated me when the game kept telling me I couldn't join her. Yes, it's stupid. Yes, it's insane. I'm an adventurer! Stupidity and Insanity are my sun and stars! Without them, the impossible will always remain impossible.
Anyway, the finale (as such things do) casts the conflict in a different light. Nothing turns out to be quite what it seems. Personally, I wasn't satisfied with the outcome, but that might just be me.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dragonspear_Castle#History Then, later (remember that devils take a long view of things), the devils came through the original portal and created new portals. The original portal still remains, btw. In terms of the status quo of the multiverse, the devils were well within their rights to invade Dragonspear Castle and seize souls.
comical
Devils are Lawful Evil, meaning they tend to be more into pacts and being invited, etc. They're sleazy as possible and play fast & loose with the rules, but they do follow a general set of rules. Demons are the ones who tend to have no rules, other than the rule of force.
In other words, I'm not sure what you found funny, when we consider how Devils in D&D tend to think.
If you didn't finshed the game, know that she has selfish motivations to do what she does. in fact she
The point of her crusade is:
1° - She's a carismatic leader, with heavenly offspring (Aassimar), a paladin of a noble and know family.
2° - She preach to undo an evil, that is the imprisonment of many souls that died on dragonspear in hell. Apparently the souls of those who lost the battle with the devils in dragonspear were dragged to hell.
3° - She intent to invade the first layer of hell only. Despite this still being ridiculous brave or insane, it's the weakest point of nine hells.
4° - She's pratically an french foreing legion, no matter your past, whoever join her get a full restart.
5° - Fanaticism is this, ppl follow blindly and don't think, and the more ppl togheter that think (or don't think) in this way, the hard is to reflect about her crusade.
She sells a noble goal at the cost and suffering of many others. She sell the lesser evil for the greater good.
So far in my view i see no problem with the plot.
Of course that my only criticize is: Siege of Dragonspear is a too high level theme of adventure for Baldur's Gate 1 and 1/2. The game is great, if it wasn't bhaalspawn history, and i can see some difficult in put BG2 early adventure in line with Siege of Dragonspear.
To end, the great point of SoD is the difficult. The game is clearly difficult to play, even unmodded. I don't mean SCS were each movment must be choosen wisely, but a blind walk in SoD can result in nasty effects.
- So sayeth the woman that will side with devils.
"And so we reach the end of a long, long journey. If you only knew the sacrifices I made to bring us to this point. All of them worthwhile."
- So sayeth the woman who knows nothing of self-sacrifice.
"I can scarcely believe it. Everything I did, every sacrifice I made, all to reach this moment... You are free at last, Uncle."
- So sayeth the woman who still hasn't sacrificed shit. Her uncle could teach her a thing or two.
"I'll not kill an innocent man. I've not fallen so far as that."
- So sayeth the woman that hires assassins, starts wars, and will gladly sacrifice ANYONE for her uncle, a guy that doesn't even want rescuing!
Maybe the biggest problem is that she's a Lawful Good aasimar and worshipper of Lathander, and yet all her actions go against that. Just pretend she's a lunatic and everything starts to make sense.
@Fardragon
Not quite the same. In BG2 you can tell any recruitable NPC that your end goal is to rescue Imoen or kill Irenicus. Caelar hides her true goal from everyone.
Caelar's flaw is not being unwilling to sacrifice - it is that she is perfectly willing to sacrifice other people for a cause she deems just. She does not even see it as selfish - she sees her uncle as so good a man, that sacrificing her followers for his sake is just.
And this is one of the classical causes for a good character to fall, believing that the ends justify the means.
Note that Caelar is not a follower of Lathander or any specific god.
As for her uncle, he would be happy being rescued - he just does not want anyone to suffer for it. It's not as if he enjoys sitting in a cage in hell.
She is NOT a worshipper of Lathander, she is an EX worshipper of Lathander who is angry at Lathander and the other good gods for not rescuing souls from hell.
@Fardragon
You both say she's not a worshipper of Lathander, so maybe I'm missing something... but...
"I knew that had to change. But how? How might I redeem myself for my sins? For years, I prayed for guidance, and then one day, one glorious day, an answer was bestowed on me by the gods themselves."
"I was brought up in the Order of the Aster. My aasimar heritage and the Argent name assured me a place of honor as a paladin of the Morninglord. Or so I thought at the time. I had such confidence then. Such certainty of purpose. I knew I would rise to greatness, knew it in my bones."
"All that barred my ascent were my superiors in the Order. They sought to teach me humility; I see that now. But I could not bring myself to bow to their authority. To any authority but Lathander's, perhaps not even his."
"Arrogant? I serve the gods—you serve the corrupt, the ignorant, ones consumed with territory, gold, power—is that also your legacy, ? Do you stand with them or for something greater?"
"What gods? The pantheon shines its light upon me—Lathander, Tyr, Helm, Tempus—all see the righteousness of my cause. Soon, the Hells shall see that light as well."
To me Caelar is the exact opposite of everything she's made out to be.
In the end she gets EXACTLY what she wanted and suffers no punishment and sacrifices nothing. And her staying in hell is not a punishment, because it's exactly where she wanted to go. No doubt she'll take sides with the first demon she meets.
She sides with the demon in the final fight if you choose certain dialog options.
The uncle chose to remain in hell to close the portal. All the lives she traded, in the end, amounted to nothing.
The above description isn't really an intended way to finish the game, but you can do it. You can, in fact, kill her after killing off the demons. And if you do so, her uncle stays behind in hell to close the portal instead of her.