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Dual Classing NPC's (Spoilers)

AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
I am doing a run through with a Chaotic Neutral Charname right now doing some deliberately bizarre things to reflect the alignment and her extremely low wisdom score and just got my first wisdom tome. Part of the run is also going through without any cleric or druid in the party (Charname, Imoen, Monty, Xzar and Edwin). I looked at Edwin and Imoen and determined that the 3 tomes of wisdom were useless on them since they couldn't get to the 18 wisdom needed to make that useful in BG2 for the wish spells. Then I noticed that Xzar has a 16 wisdom, gave him the tome, and dualed him to a cleric. This gimps my party but should be entertaining.

Hopefully this topic isn't duplicating one already out there, but I thought it might be useful for people to have a discussion on which NPCs can dual class. I think everyone knows Imoen can dual to mage.

Shar-Teel makes a great thief.

Branwen can dual to thief with the dex tome.

Safana can dual to mage with the int tome.

Dynaheir can go cleric with two wisdom tomes (thanks sarevok57).

Any other NPCs that can dual?

Post edited by AHF on
lolien

Comments

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,736
    Dynaheir can become a cleric with 2 wisdome tomes, and xzar can become a thief with 1 dexterity tome, and i think that is about it, isnt monty already a fighter/thief? since he is a halfling?

  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    sarevok57 said:

    Dynaheir can become a cleric with 2 wisdome tomes, and xzar can become a thief with 1 dexterity tome, and i think that is about it, isnt monty already a fighter/thief? since he is a halfling?

    Yes. Shouldn't have been in there to begin with.

  • JaxsbudgieJaxsbudgie Member Posts: 600
    edited October 2012
    Xzar can also become a Cleric with just one wisdom tome (he already shares the joint highest wisdom score in the game). I have in the past picked up the wisdom tome in Durlag's Tower right off the bat after leaving Candlekeep, gone back to Xzar, recruited him, then dualled him to be the best cleric in the game who can use wands and read arcane scrolls, huzzah!
    Plus the idea of a Necromancer / Cleric makes great thematic sense.

    His strength is decent enough to equip full plate and a big shield without being encumbered. Couple that with his awesome dexterity an he's an awesome backline tank / healer / wand spammer / sling hurler. His low constitution is of no concern when he's at the back, in full plate, with a shield and 16 dexterity. Give him the other two wisdom tomes and you're laughing ... albeit somewhat manically.

    lolien
  • ZaorZaor Member Posts: 69
    As a side note, I don't understand why the crazed mage who I always envision charging with his dagger from too many poor scripts has the top wisdom. Maybe he secretly acts that way so he can control all the low wisdom people, since only they would keep the evil psychotic mageling? And if he has such a high wisdom, why is is house guarded by 2 magelings fresh out of diapers and 3 goblins? Or why he bothers to try to recover Monty when he is wise, not LAWful evil, hates Monty enough to wish him dead, and should know the Harpers are obviously bullshitting him. (Every npc in my group called it, and they have far less wisdom!)

    You can say his insanity/ego/insert flaw got to him, but that's not very wise of him, is it?

    /rant

  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    Dual-classing Branwen into Thief when you're level 7 as Cleric makes her one of the best NPCs in the game. I mean, she's already really good, but you essentially give up one level 3 and one level 4 divine spell for nine full levels of Thief. A multi-class Cleric/Thief can only reach level 7 in cleric and level 8 in thief, so she's actually better at it than Tiax.

    Plus, I think she can backstab with Spiritual Hammer. There aren't any magical clubs in BG1 and therefore the only other magical weapon you could utilize to backstab with a cleric/thief is two-handed in the form of Quarterstaves. So, that's kind of neat.

    Honestly, if it wasn't for how important Dexterity is and that she can't jump into BG2 with you, I'd probably do this with her every single game.

    Quartzlolien
  • IsairIsair Member Posts: 217
    Can Branwen reach level 9 as a thief if she's dualed at 7 with the standard BG1 cap? I thought she'd be close but the XP limit would cut her off (just) at 7/8. Though that limit may be redundant/no longer apply come EE.

    Certainly a fantasic dual though, its a shame there isn't the shear quantity of dualable NPCs in BG2. It made the game alot more interesting. If the cap is raised Xzar will be an even more interesting dual, Shar-teel will no-doubt still be my favorite.

    sandmanCCLlolien
  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    Oh dear, you're right. I suck at the maths.

    All they'd have to do is increase the cap by 4k xp, too. Shame.

  • IsairIsair Member Posts: 217
    It is! If only the cap had been 165,000, it'd be quite strange if they changed it to that in EE. For that reason alone haha. I think both the people wanting the cap raised & those wanting it to remain the same would be scratching their heads.

    Branwen as a fighter thief in BGEE no matter what stands to be even better, Tiax too. Even if they don't lift the cap. Holy power will make a dramatic difference.

  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    My issue with raising the cap is there's no way to do it without punishing single-class guys an unfair amount compared to multi-class guys.

    Theoretically if they want each type of guy to gain one more level, they'd have to go all the way to 250k. Fighters could get to 9, Thieves and Druids and Bards to 11, Mages to 10, Clerics to 9. Actually, paladins and rangers would still be stuck at 8.

    This sounds fine on paper, but the problem is multi-class guys would all gain like another two levels out of it between their classes. Dual-class people could go totally nuts. 250k xp means a level 8 fighter, level 9 thief. You could hit the previous cap of fighter, and STILL gain 9 levels of thief on top of it to gain x4 backstabs? Nuts. Totally crazy. Absolutely absurd.

    Personally I'd like to see the XP tables reworked. I know this isn't going to happen, and I know a lot of people here think that some of the arbitrary, stupid rules of AD&D are "charming" and "soulful" (whatever that means!) but I always thought they were arbitrary and stupid. I'm not saying every class needs to be "balanced" (whatever that means!), but at least the rules should make sense. Why do Clerics hit level 7 faster than nearly everyone and then all the sudden lag behind mages (the previous slowest levelers of any class) for levels 8 through 12, both have the same XP for level 13, and then suddenly start leveling significantly faster than mages again?

    Also druids. DRUIDS, Y U NO LEVEL 15?!

    (PS: I'm in a really good mood because I've downed like 5 cans of Dr. Pepper and set up a date with a girl I think is really neat for Saturday night, so read the above in the humorous tone I intended. :D)

    DragonspearBrude
  • IsairIsair Member Posts: 217
    edited October 2012
    @sandmanCCL with good reason, I feel fantastic after one Dr. Pepper (they're somewhat hard to come by here).

    I agree with you regarding the broad variations in different classes XP charts but I to think it's very unlikely to be changed. 3rd edition addresses it well, in that all classes level at the same rate. It's not really a light topic matter but in Baldurs Gate/2nd ed classes aren't as balanced (naturally this can be debated). Hence the varied leveling. Dual classing does throw this but... Ultimately they pay the price in that their first class doesn't progress once dualed. Which as you pointed out makes little difference in BG1 when looked at as an independent entity (level 8 fighter/level 9 thief multi). There's still a price paid even in this case, which is that a fighter/thief can take less damge, has (& yes I admit it's slight) lower THAC0, misses out on a pip & has lower thief skills. These become much more apparent come BG2.

    I personally take a thief dual or multi over a single class everytime but there's many people who don't. So I'm not that concerned about it being unbalanced. The odd lags are just that, there's an issue there & with druids. There's a 2nd mythology at work in the latters case, one which should have been omitted for the sake of common sense.

  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    I don't really have an issue with the experience tables except for druid. I would just move them to the cleric table and reflect the spell acquisition along those lines as well for purposes of the BG games.

  • JaxsbudgieJaxsbudgie Member Posts: 600
    Zaor said:

    As a side note, I don't understand why the crazed mage who I always envision charging with his dagger from too many poor scripts has the top wisdom. Maybe he secretly acts that way so he can control all the low wisdom people, since only they would keep the evil psychotic mageling? And if he has such a high wisdom, why is is house guarded by 2 magelings fresh out of diapers and 3 goblins? Or why he bothers to try to recover Monty when he is wise, not LAWful evil, hates Monty enough to wish him dead, and should know the Harpers are obviously bullshitting him. (Every npc in my group called it, and they have far less wisdom!)

    You can say his insanity/ego/insert flaw got to him, but that's not very wise of him, is it?

    /rant


    Not sure if you're aware, but Necromancers have to have a minimum of 16 wisdom, I think this has some relation to their school of magic being the (more or less) predominant school used by Clerics and Druids, both of whom are wisdom users.
    As for role playing, it's hard to say and wisdom is definitely the trickiest ability to pin point when it comes to NPCs and their actions. Viconia for example is statistically the joint wisest NPC in the entire saga, why then does she pick fights with those obviously physically stronger than her and why does she get captured twice? Cernd, the other wisest NPC makes some god awful choices in relation to his family with serious repercussions that a wise man would have averted. I think Xzar's wisdom is masked by his insanity, it's easy to dub a madman as unintelligible and absent minded, but in his wild ramblings "I once saw a dragon with feet like a rabbit! Tis true I swear!" ... perhaps there is some fantastic philosophical understanding behind that quote? Who knows :)

    lolien
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,834
    Xzar can go either Cleric or Thief. :) He's got opshins!!

    Isair
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