Assassination HLA: Should it be available to rogues more than once?

jflieder

As excited as I am for BG:EE, I'm also looking ahead to BG2:EE. In BG2, rogues are only able to select the Assassination HLA once. Compared to other offensive melee HLA's, such as (Greater) Whirlwind, (Greater) Deathblow, Power Attack, Critical Strike and Smite, Assassination is the only one that is available once. Should this remain the same or should it change?

Moomintroll

I'd prefer making it so that you can take a precursor skill giving backstab for the next attack without need for positioning or invisibility, multiple times. But only be able to take assassination once.

I can't remember how it works at the moment, does assassination have a requirement?

jflieder

Moomintroll said:

I'd prefer making it so that you can take a precursor skill giving backstab for the next attack without need for positioning or invisibility, multiple times. But only be able to take assassination once.

I can't remember how it works at the moment, does assassination have a requirement?

Assassination does not have a prerequisite in BG2. I like your idea of a lesser backstab HLA being a re-selectable prereq for Assassination. That would be a short, quick killer to throw in for rogues in the middle of melee combat.

sandmanCCL

Assassination + Improved Haste + Belm + Scarlet Ninja-To

If you're finding you need to trigger Assassination again, that thing is immune to backstab because nothing else will stand up to that.

ryuken87

You can't backstab with SNT, and you can reach 10 attacks with only one of Belm/Kundane/SNT (providing you have the fighter levels).

sandmanCCL

Just noticed the Scarlet Ninja-To is only usable by monks. Heeerp.

Shows how often I bother with scimitar proficiency and also bother with anything other than the spectral brand or Drizzt gear.

Cheesebelly

If you keep Scarlet Ninja-to in your offhand, that extra attack per round still goes to the main hand though

But no, Assassination should be available just once, no more. It's a serious HLA, stronger than any other, for instance, Critical hits just doubles your damage. Assassination quintuples it, or septuples it. Keep it the way it is for me.

Zaor

sandmanCCL said:

Assassination + Improved Haste + Belm + Scarlet Ninja-To

If you're finding you need to trigger Assassination again, that thing is immune to backstab because nothing else will stand up to that.

Except for anything that requires better than +2 weapons to hit.

But then, I suppose there are very few things that require +3 weapons that aren't immune to backstab.

There is, however, a shortsword that also gives an extra (Unlisted in description) attack. Kunade, if I recall, and it IS usable by thieves naturally, so your plan lives on.


On point though, critical hit can be taken multiple times while doing equatable damage. While not perfectly equatable, fighter-weapons tend towards more damage than thief weapons with the notable exception of the Staff of Ram/striking. If the fighter weapon/fighter bonuses do double the damage of a thief's weapon, assassination is only marginally more powerful than critical strike and just as situation, since many of the things you wish it would work on it will not. I'm looking at you, upper level outsiders. Assassination is useful for pretty much anyone immune to critical hits (eg normal fighter types) while critical strike is useful for the obscure monstrosities.

With that said, yeah, late game, an assassin with improved haste/gauntlets of weapon specialty and mass assassination is going to be even crazier on the dps, but within acceptable bounds in my opinion while considering the balance of other physical attackers. I don't think it will affect balance much at all and will give people a reason to not spam buy cheesy trap hlas while not hurting themselves from a power-game perspective.

sandmanCCL

Zaor said:

On point though, critical hit can be taken multiple times while doing equatable damage. While not perfectly equatable, fighter-weapons tend towards more damage than thief weapons with the notable exception of the Staff of Ram/striking. If the fighter weapon/fighter bonuses do double the damage of a thief's weapon, assassination is only marginally more powerful than critical strike and just as situation, since many of the things you wish it would work on it will not. I'm looking at you, upper level outsiders. Assassination is useful for pretty much anyone immune to critical hits (eg normal fighter types) while critical strike is useful for the obscure monstrosities.

Things fighters can use Thieves cannot:

Halberds (d10)
Two-Handed Swords (d10, rare instances of d12)
Bastard Sword (2d4)
Axe (d8)
Mace/Hammer/Flail and Morningstar (none better than d8)

Things Thieves can still use to backstab with:

Longsword (d8)
Katana (d10)
Scimitar (d8)
Staff (d6, but as you mentioned Staff of the Ram)

"Fighter" weapons and thief weapons are nearly identical in the damage they can inflict, therefore Assassination is "stronger" than mere Critical Hits.

Also, the fact it is more situational does not really matter. Increased usages of something that is "situational" means you'd have a bunch of them sitting in your spells list unused per day anyway.

Ulfgar_Torunn

While giving a thief a few extra Assassinations wouldn't break the class, consider the interaction with the Kensai kit. The Kensai/Thief already benefits too much from the Use Any Item HLA, and would be far too powerful with multiple Assassinations.

If somehow the ability were available to single class thieves only it would be perfectly reasonable. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

mjs

3rd option. get rid of it completely, waaaay overpowered

Sharn

Name an HLA that isn't?

Cheesebelly

Tracking... XD

Mortianna

Staying true to the name, make it available only to Assassins. Let core-class thieves and other sub-classes have their own HLAs.

Cheesebelly

Assassins - Assassination (multiple backstabs, visible and from whichever position)
Bounty Hunter - Live hunt (able to set traps even in enemy sight for a round)
Swashbuckler - Riposte (a massive backstab-like critical hit, dealing damage similar to the deathbringer blow)
Thief - Something else I guess XD

Moomintroll

how many traps can you set in a round?

AHF

Moomintroll said:

how many traps can you set in a round?

One.

sarevok57

what about that bard flute HLA its pretty over powered......... oh wait, its not

Cheesebelly

Improved song? Well, Blades could certainly come without it. As for the traps and rounds, maybe make it slightly longer, but being able to stop time once per day mid-battle for a thief seems a pretty big boost.

sarevok57

i never understood the time stop trap, kind of unconventional i thought, you cant do any damage when time is stopped and why would you need the borrowed time to get into position for a backstab? there are retards amount of invisibility potions out there to do that with, and best of all the spike trap does less damage than the standard thief trap, rIgHt On

sarevok57

@Cheesebelly bard song is actually an amazing ability especially for the fact that it has infinite range

jflieder

sarevok57 said:

i never understood the time stop trap, kind of unconventional i thought, you cant do any damage when time is stopped and why would you need the borrowed time to get into position for a backstab? there are retards amount of invisibility potions out there to do that with, and best of all the spike trap does less damage than the standard thief trap, rIgHt On

I thought that you can still do damage during a time stop trap. My understanding is that the damage done is not incurred until the end of the trap, but the successful attacks during the time stop trap cumulate to a combined amount of damage inflicted upon the end of the time stop period.

Here is a link to a video of a fighter/thief unloading Arrows of Detonation during a the period of a time stop trap. The arrows do not damage the targets during the stopped time, but the attacks during the stopped time do damage once the time stop ends.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOG3gJYvLRE

Cheesebelly

Missile weapons and spells don't do any damage during time stop, melee attacks however do, and can kill targets while time is stopped. It is also worth noting that time stop makes all the attacks automatically successful (thus a combo of timestop and shapechange : mindflayer is one of the deadliest combinations in the game, since it can kill a powerful foe like Draconis in 3-4 hits)

sarevok57

is this with wacky mods or non modded games? because i remember one time when i tried doing that nothing happened ( i have no mods and have just vanilla) also when i tried this, this was YEARS ago so things could have changed since then (patches and what not)

ryuken87

Damage still works during Timestop, furthermore I think you automatically hit (barring a critical miss). A funny way to kill many enemies is to polymorph your mage into a mindflayer then int-drain your targets during the Timestop.

Moomintroll

echo in here?

Zaor

sandmanCCL said:

"Fighter" weapons and thief weapons are nearly identical in the damage they can inflict, therefore Assassination is "stronger" than mere Critical Hits.

Also, the fact it is more situational does not really matter. Increased usages of something that is "situational" means you'd have a bunch of them sitting in your spells list unused per day anyway.

You misunderstand my argument. Take a look again at the list and ask yourself how many of the weapons thieves cannot use have massive pluses to damage. For instance, flail of ages, Ravager, Foebane, even the impaler etc. The only comparable weapon to those on the thief list is Staff of Ram. It's true, the differences rarely show up very heavily until mid-tob, but the difference in sheer number of non-thief weapons that have stronger enchantments is clear. With that said, in Soa the difference is very minute; Celestial fury will just about match the dps for any other weapon assuming it can hit. But then again, how many times you can use assassination in SoA is SO much less of a balance issue than being able to use it at all.

Dragonspear

(Full List from Mikes RPG Center):
+3 Longswords

Blade of Roses
The Equalizer (Better Thac0 further from TN the target is, so there is a good chance it might be considered a +5 for bypassing enchantments)
Blackrazor

+4
The Answerer
Angurvadal (Unupgraded)

+5
Angurvadal

+3 Shortswords:
Shortsword of Backstabbing

+4
Cutthroat
Sword of Mask (unupgraded)

+5
Sword of Mask

+3 dagger
Pixie Prick

+4
Boneblade
Dagger of the Star (Unupgraded)

+5
Dagger of the Star

+3 Katanas
Celestial Fury
Hindo's Doom (Unupgraded)

+4
Hindo's Doom

+3 Scimitar (etc)
Drizzt Weapons

+4
Spectral Brand (Unupgraded)
Usuno's Blade
Yamato

+5
Spectral Brand

+3 Clubs
Blackblood
Club of Detonation

+3 Quarterstaves
Cleric's Staff
Martial Staff
Rode of Smithing
Staff pf Striking (I think)

+4
Staff of the Ram (Unupgraded)

+6
Staff of the Ram

That said I don't believe there are any 1 handed weapons in game capable of reaching +6. The only +6 weapons I know of are Staff of the Ram, Ravager, Carsomyr, and Ixil's Spike

stygga

Hey guys, time stop + shape change mind flayer is the deadliest combo in the game!

bbear

another way to do it is use mislead scroll and stand behind your opponent and backstab. Works great w/ FT or FMT when you can also do greater whirlwind. For FMT (and a mod that removes xp cap and adds in the mage quest spells), precast mislead and improve alacrity. Then stand behind your opponent and use greater whirlwind and critical strike at once for super overkill.