Am I crazy or is a blade the best tank? And slightly OP

Neeber

Been playing a Blade solo for a while now, and albeit I took the xp cap off bg1 and was a little over leveled (im a completionist and wanted to be rewarded for my efforts dont judge me ) Im finding that a pc blade is a death dealing machine that is almost indestructible. Playing on the hard difficulty setting easily went through bgee in my first attempt at a no reload (again no judgy not an scs master ) and im wondering what people think. Does the blades effectiveness wane in bg2 or is it improved by access to the great lvl 6 defensive spells and UAI? I mean protection from evil, blur, mirror image, stone skin, duhm , and offensive spin made even the hardest bg fights super easy with the right equipment, and with access to uai and defensive spin and all the magical protection items does the blade take the cake as an end game tank ? Over the mage or dwarven defender ? Love the class btw.

Lord_Tansheron

AC tanking is very good in BG1, but it loses effectiveness in BG2. One reason is that enemy THAC0s improve quite substantially (particularly in ToB), another is that there is a lot of damage going around that doesn't care much about AC (magic damage, disabling effects that allow attacks to bypass AC, etc.).

AC is still good to have, but it's noticeably less OP than it is in BG1. Non-AC sources of protection consequently become more powerful, which is why the general paradigm shifts more towards caster tanks with Stoneskin, Mirror Image, PfMW, etc.

JumboWheat01

Plus it makes you immobile. If something decides to go after something else instead of you, you're stuck there. All that AC isn't going to do you much good if your cleric or wizard is getting nommed.

dunbar

Currently my best tank in SoA is an Assassin/Mage but, I'm soloing so the level progression is fast - which supports the argument that at higher levels AC alone becomes less important.

Abi_Dalzim

I had a Dark Moon Monk that made an impressive AC tank into Throne of Bhaal, but that was only because back then armor bracers and the Monk's natural armor bonuses stacked, and so I could get below -20 without too much trouble. And even then, the magic resistance was just as important, and I would still take some hits. Now that that's been nerfed, I don't think I'll rely on AC that much again. It's honestly kind of hard to make a BG2 character with a significantly better armor class than a BG1 character, you just run out of ways to boost it.

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jesterdesu

If songs still stack they're the single most ridiculous class at anything once they gain the enhanced song. Still decent if not, especially considering illusions can sing whilst they fight.

Jarrakul

I've been saying for ages that the blade is the best tank in the game. They have a lot more hit points than they get credit for, due to fast levelling and Find Familiar, they can use Defensive Spin to get an AC so good it's relevant even into TOB, and they have access to all the important mage defensive spells. So yeah, blades are seriously good.

Lord_Tansheron

While Blades are great tanks in BG1 to be sure, for BG2 personally I prefer to have tank mode as an option on a character I'd otherwise be using for damage. Blades are okay at damage but not amazing, whereas something like Berserker9->Cleric or Berserker9->Mage is amazing both offensively and defensively. There's other, fairly similar options (like Fighter/Cleric etc.) depending on your game/mod setup, and pretty much all are likely "better" (insofar as you can even make that determination) than a Blade in BG2.

jackjack

Yeah, multiclasses in general grow much more powerful in BG2, given that you can gain a level by picking a lock. Okay, I'm exaggerating, still though.

Blackorb

Blades are 1 of the best single class tanks in game, anything with arcane spells can tank very well, also the fact they have defensive spin that at the level cap of bg1 already gives -10 ac (max) is nice, yes you cant move but it is still useable in a lot of situations
( small dungeon halls for example were you can block all the enemys are perfect for this, watch out for casters and archers though) and blades have pretty good hp for a non figther because of fast leveling and a familiar.

Blades are not the best dmg dealers in game but a there dmg is decent/good for a single class character that is not a figther when you use offensive spin, which wil make your attacks roll for max dmg ( a shame you cant combo this with haste i think you could in vanilla bg2? Not sure though) they are also decent dual wielders because of the extra pips they can put in to dual wielding. The spells they cast will also be higher level because of fast leveling which helps with things like magic missle and dispell magic which scale with caster level.

Less important There lore and pickpocketing is still good even if it is lower then a normal bard which is nice. As a blade you wont use the bard song much but it can situational still be useable against fear if your low level and you dont have a cleric but yeah there are a lot of other better things to do then then sing a song on a blade xd conclusion multiclass combos will be a lot stronger/better and there are some other kits on the same level but still a fun and very good single class. Ps yes i like blades xd.

Edit: sorry for the wall of text ahahah
Edit2: made it more readable xd.

jesterdesu

@Blackorb

Don't underestimate the enhanced bard song hla.

The blade is about not getting hit when tanking and he does that better than any other class or multi. Not getting hit is more than just armour class, though he also excels there too. The rest depends on caster level (which blade wins for most of the game) and availability of blur, imp invis, mirror image, stoneskins, prot from magical weapons etc.

Another nice bonus is the bard only enchanted elven chain from fairly early in bg2.

I believe bards also get evasion and avoid death in their hla's too, which also make nice tank buffs.

jesterdesu

In summary I'd have a blade as main tank over any other class as he can do his thing whilst barely ever needing healing.

I should have mentioned that he can of course protect himself from magic better than any other "tank" as well.

Blackorb

@jesterdesu your rigth about the enhanced bard song hla which removes the blades only "real" penalty.

But before the enhanced bard song hla and clones that can sing the song for you either by spell or a certain helm. singing a bard song will not be so usefull on a blade which is of course no longer a problem mid/end bg2 and tob

Thank you for mentioning hla's though i somehow forgot to mentions hla's i also shouldnt have done that post in a hurry i am going to edit it, it needs some spaces it is hard to read ahahah.

DevardKrown

AC tanking in BG1 is good , in 2 Not so...i rather go with a XXX/Mage preferable a Swashbuckler or Kensai with inbuild extra AC and to hit chances.

Slap on Ghost Armor with AC 1 and forget about all those AC5 items , just take one for your chestslot that adds Saving throws you want. , add dex ,class bonus, and all the items and your AC pummels down easy in the -1X Sector add a Stoneskin and some Mirror images and even if the enemy goes through your crazy AC all he gets is a mirror image , and even if hes lucky just a slice of that stoneskin, both spells are instantly so you can tank out enemy's for like ever.. without taking a single HP damage.


and if that all is not working , guess what you are still a full fledged mage , and can do what ever they do.

jesterdesu

@DevardKrown

A blade does all that with higher caster level and ofc drops 10 ac in the process

DevardKrown

jesterdesu said:

@DevardKrown

A blade does all that with higher caster level and ofc drops 10 ac in the process

true the caster level is higher until the end of BG1 then its just slightly ahead ,also i always will think of bards as less useful watered down fighter/mages , bard song makes you fiddle thumbs in the corner not allowed to fight but i have to admit they buff the party hard with enhanced bard song but you don't have to make charname a bard for that Hear'Dalis is already a Blade and could just sing in the corner for you :P , offensive and defensive spin are daily limited so you have to punch the rest button even harder. you get a similar effect with Berserker rage , or just the permanent bonuses of Kensai

also you are cut off at Spell level 6 , and 7-8-9 have the good umpf spells

Jarrakul

The blade can generally out tank a fighter/mage, due to higher caster level, more hit points (from the blade's substantially higher level, especially late-game), and defensive spin. The fighter/mage, however, is vastly better at doing physical damage. In terms of spell damage (/ability damage) it's more complicated. At low levels, the blade is the clear winner, because of their higher caster level. At higher levels, the blade stops getting new spell levels, and so loses out on Horrid Wilting and the mage HLAs. Which really hurts, but the blade still gets Skull Trap with its insane level scaling, and of course Spike Traps, which are just absurdly powerful. Truth be told, at high levels I'm inclined to call the whole thing moot, since both classes are so powerful that it's hard to imagine either class having significant trouble with a fight.

jesterdesu

I can pretty much agree with the conclusion that both get silly.

offensive spin is no slouch in the damage department either... Not forgetting that blades can use any weapon, dual wield Crom and Scarlett ninja to for (32+25) x 4 means 228 damage per round assuming no misses, which there won't be in most cases, particularly if coupled with time stop traps in the tough fights.

That max damage every hit is a ridiculous level of hurt and I'd imagine only a kensai dual keeping up.

Plus blades got flavour.

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Jarrakul

Interesting. I've been kind of "meh" about offensive spin for a while now, at least at high levels, since it doesn't stack with Improved Haste. It's hard for me to see why you'd take 4 max damage hits when you could have 6 normal hits.

Grum

jesterdesu said:

I can pretty much agree with the conclusion that both get silly.

offensive spin is no slouch in the damage department either... Not forgetting that blades can use any weapon, dual wield Crom and Scarlett ninja to for (32+25) x 4 means 228 damage per round assuming no misses, which there won't be in most cases, particularly if coupled with time stop traps in the tough fights.

That max damage every hit is a ridiculous level of hurt and I'd imagine only a kensai dual keeping up.

Plus blades got flavour.

Damn it man! I just rolled a 92 for a fighter/mage. Now I want to reroll as a blade.

Purudaya

One thing that drives me crazy about blades: offensive spin negates haste, so a hasted party will remain hasted with the exception of the blade after the fight, which makes moving to the next fight before the effect wears off a pain. I would probably play one if it weren't for this feature, because I hate having to constantly equip and unequip boots of speed.

That and Offensive Spin feels obsolete once improved haste + tenser's become available. If only the ability improved at higher levels.

jackjack

I don't know, I feel like Offensive Spin is already so powerful that adding Improved Haste to it would make it even sillier.

Grum

This thread made me start a new blade run. My first time using a bard of any sort. Behold!



Aelise. Talented, impatient, insecure...she failed in her training as a mage, as she didn't have the mental fortitude for long hours of study. She failed in her training as a bard (hence her abysmal pick pocket and lore), deeming it 'beneath her.' She failed in her training as a watcher, soon quiting when the disciplined life ill suited her. However, through her years of trying and rejecting all of the training given to her, she has leaned a little bit of everything. That, with her natural inclination towards violence, she just might survive adventuring in the sword coast.

She is 'intelligent evil' in that she understands that a good reputation makes life easier (int16 and cha18). This makes her a natural party face in her quest to amass personal power and fortune.

Planned BG1 party:

Aelise
Dorn
Baeloth
Viconia
Shar-Teel (dualed to thief)
Kargain

Planned BG2 Party

Ailise
Dorn
Hexxat
Viconia
Korgan

Unsure if I want Haer'Dalis or Sarevok for spot 6...

jackjack

Two Blades is a lot of micromanagement. I personally would go with Sarevok. Then again, an extra arcane caster is always nice, and you've already got Korgan. Tough call.

Grum

jackjack said:

Two Blades is a lot of micromanagement. I personally would go with Sarevok. Then again, an extra arcane caster is always nice, and you've already got Korgan. Tough call.

I was thinking of having Haer just be a super skald. Defender of easthaven and the axe of the unyielding...defensive spin and improved bard song. Add in all the defensive spells and I can't see anything touching him. Then charname gets to be an offensive blade, with crom and the scarlet ninjato.

Then again...Sarevok is a beast. Decisions...

Abi_Dalzim

It feels very, very sad that you have two bards in the party and yet because they're both blades (and one has a wisdom penalty), you're still not gonna have great lore.

Southpaw

...yes Blade is a quite good tank, but not the best. Yes, you are slightly crazy, but not batshit.
If you'd have any more questions, just ask.

Grum

Btw my blade is now lvl5.

Offensively she is nothing to write home about. Pretty average when spinning.
Defensively, dropping the spin makes her a great tank indeed. Feels similar as of now to playing a dwarven defender, in that she has a "tank" ability. But where the dwarf takes hits, the blade dodges them.

My thanks for making me try something new

jesterdesu

My calculations were wrong actually as I multiplied both attacks by 4 and forgot to add the +2 to each hit that offensive spin grants.

The final figure should have read 122 damage per round (still no slouch). Add an oil of speed in there too for another 36 dmg... Blades get rogue hla's so can create these daily if you don't mind save scumming.