Skip to content

BG2, A problem of game rules with the new companion hexxat....

Winced and closed one eye as Anomen casted cure light wounds on a dying hexxat. To both my surprise and disappointment, hexxat was healed instead of damaged from a cure wound spell....

Comments

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    this has always been around, I remember ( at least back in the vanilla days) using mass cure to heal my skeleton warriors, im not sure if in 2nd edition healing spells hurt undead but again, bg2 isn't a perfect translation of PnP over to PC, so every once in a while whacky and silly things will and can happen
  • ussnorwayussnorway Member Posts: 341
    when she does die he will raise her again only to see her turn to mist... not very good scripting but funny as hell
  • red_codecred_codec Member Posts: 44
    ussnorway said:

    when she does die he will raise her again only to see her turn to mist... not very good scripting but funny as hell

    Do you know how to manage her death? Whenever she dies, she becomes a mist. Am I allowed to heal that mist? Do I have to resurrect her if she dies? She's a vampire, shouldn't she spring back up after a time limit?
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    She will come back after 8 hours.
  • red_codecred_codec Member Posts: 44
    edited May 2016
    mf2112 said:

    She will come back after 8 hours.

    Coo!

    Had to drop her though. Im good and shes evil, and party members didn't like her. Forced to let her go when aeerie said she goes off killing people, some innocents at night for feeding. Nuh uh for goodie parties.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    If you have Mazzy she can take care of Hexxat for you in the party.
  • Clumsy_DwarfClumsy_Dwarf Member Posts: 112
    sarevok57 said:

    this has always been around, I remember ( at least back in the vanilla days) using mass cure to heal my skeleton warriors, im not sure if in 2nd edition healing spells hurt undead but again, bg2 isn't a perfect translation of PnP over to PC, so every once in a while whacky and silly things will and can happen

    I think it was a common "house rule" in 2E but nothing official. I think It depended on how you saw healing spells. Were they opening a conduit to the positive energy plane or something from the god in question. An evil god may want you to heal yourself and your undead minions with the same spell.
    red_codec said:


    Coo!

    Had to drop her though. Im good and shes evil, and party members didn't like her. Forced to let her go when aeerie said she goes off killing people, some innocents at night for feeding. Nuh uh for goodie parties.

    Now I have not had them in the party at the same time but be warned, she has been known to stretch the truth and such when it comes to the less savory party members. Keep in mind too that good people are not above working with evil if it is for the greater good. There are 2 evil NPCs that can be redeemed after all.

  • red_codecred_codec Member Posts: 44


    Now I have not had them in the party at the same time but be warned, she has been known to stretch the truth and such when it comes to the less savory party members. Keep in mind too that good people are not above working with evil if it is for the greater good. There are 2 evil NPCs that can be redeemed after all.

    From an RP perspective my main char just acted out of conscience. Also hexxat admitted herself to it and did not deny the claim. She tried to justify herself saying she already stated she will do what she needs to to survive. Which makes sense, she needs food to live, it just happens her food are humans. I just can't condone that. eek!

  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    This is a tough one. From Hexxat's response I would say that she doesn't intentionally kill innocent people when she goes out at night. Killing does not necessarily have to follow feeding. Occasionally she might be discovered by someone in the house and has to kill them to escape, but that isn't her goal and it is generally avoided.

    Aerie: Do you think w-we don't know what you do at night, when we're sleeping?
    Hexxat: Should I care?
    Aerie: I've seen you, I've seen the stains. You... you kill people. Innocent people.
    Hexxat: Occasionally. If I have to.
    Aerie: You don't deserve to travel with us. You... you don't deserve anything at all.
    Hexxat: I'm sorry you feel that way.
    Aerie: I...what?
    Hexxat: I would like to be your friend, Aerie. But I am what I am. When you are ready to accept that, please, come speak to me again. For now, I bid you good .

    That said, I agree she doesn't fit in most good parties. I think her final quest is not redemption as such, but she does want to die as a human and effectively offers her human soul up for judgement by the Faerunian gods, as opposed to dying as an undead and withholding the soul from them. It takes a long time to get there with her in the party and as a good party you need to let her do it.

    In a PnP game I would reward a lot of quest points to a party that helped her accomplish that, even if the means were less than savory as long as no outright evil was done. That is why this is tough to me, it would be nice to shortcut a lot of her crypt crawl quests and jump right to the end. I know this kinds of defeats the purpose of an NPC to keep through the end game, but it would feel more right to me to include her for a short time, help her find L and then end it more quickly.
  • magisenseimagisensei Member Posts: 316
    mf2112 said:



    Aerie: Do you think w-we don't know what you do at night, when we're sleeping?
    Hexxat: Should I care?
    Aerie: I've seen you, I've seen the stains. You... you kill people. Innocent people.
    Hexxat: Occasionally. If I have to.
    Aerie: You don't deserve to travel with us. You... you don't deserve anything at all.
    Hexxat: I'm sorry you feel that way.
    Aerie: I...what?
    Hexxat: I would like to be your friend, Aerie. But I am what I am. When you are ready to accept that, please, come speak to me again. For now, I bid you good .

    .

    This all conjecture on the part of Aerie she has no real proof just her overblowned imagination. From the start Aerie was already biased against her and as such it isn't too surprising she tries to say something to get the PC to boot her out of the party.

    On an "oops" note - I accidentally killed Hexxat permanently - she doesn't come back from petrifcation - unfortunately she walked over a trap that she didn't see in time.

    For me at least, the story line for Hexxat could have been done so much better, sadly it wasn't. I personally don't need for her to be redeemed as there is no going back from being a vampire but the story line and ending could have been done much better.

    So sad Hexxat is a vampire that is barely a vampire.



  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    edited May 2016
    Just in case as there isn't a SPOILER tag in the thread title.


    Hexxat's last quest reward (unless charname talks her out of it) is for L to turn her back to a human. Fortunately or unfortunately depending on how you look at it he can't change her age so she dies immediately afterwards. I don't look at it as redemption as such but there is a possibility of it at that point as she dies as human and not undead. After all, if Hexxat is part of a good aligned party then shouldn't she get some credit?

    Also, you can turn charname's love interest back from Bodhi's vampirism by bringing their body to the ruined temple.

  • red_codecred_codec Member Posts: 44
    lunar said:

    If you have Mazzy she can take care of Hexxat for you in the party.

    Fat hobbit blood? LOL
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    mf2112 said:




    Also, you can turn charname's love interest back from Bodhi's vampirism by bringing their body to the ruined temple.

    I'm quite sure this does not happen with EE romances, and positive it does not with Hexxat
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    Arunsun said:

    mf2112 said:




    Also, you can turn charname's love interest back from Bodhi's vampirism by bringing their body to the ruined temple.

    I'm quite sure this does not happen with EE romances, and positive it does not with Hexxat
    Definitely works with EE, I brought Jaheira back just a couple weeks ago. I have never tried the Hexxat romance but I believe I read here that Bodhi will not take Hexxat in that situation so it doesn't come up. Also, you never have Hexxat's body to place in the statue's arms so it wouldn't work.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    mf2112 said:

    Arunsun said:

    mf2112 said:




    Also, you can turn charname's love interest back from Bodhi's vampirism by bringing their body to the ruined temple.

    I'm quite sure this does not happen with EE romances, and positive it does not with Hexxat
    Definitely works with EE, I brought Jaheira back just a couple weeks ago. I have never tried the Hexxat romance but I believe I read here that Bodhi will not take Hexxat in that situation so it doesn't come up. Also, you never have Hexxat's body to place in the statue's arms so it wouldn't work.
    By EE romances I meant Neera Rasaad Dorn and Hexxat. Of course it works with vanilla romances
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    Arunsun said:



    By EE romances I meant Neera Rasaad Dorn and Hexxat. Of course it works with vanilla romances

    Gotcha, right. It comes up in the dialogs but she doesn't take them.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    red_codec said:

    lunar said:

    If you have Mazzy she can take care of Hexxat for you in the party.

    Fat hobbit blood? LOL
    Not exactly. She challenges and kills Hexxat after a while. As a pure thief H stands no chance to win a straight-scripted-out of the party fight with her unless you intervene.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    lunar said:

    red_codec said:

    lunar said:

    If you have Mazzy she can take care of Hexxat for you in the party.

    Fat hobbit blood? LOL
    Not exactly. She challenges and kills Hexxat after a while. As a pure thief H stands no chance to win a straight-scripted-out of the party fight with her unless you intervene.
    Never got that occuring. I may have worked my way out of it with a dialogue. Besides a couple of banters, the only Mazzy-Hexxat interaction I got was Mazzy leaving the party if I did anything that'd lower my reputation with Hexxat in the crew. This was bugged though (We're talking about Hexxat, of course it was :smiley: ) and sometimes the dialogue would trigger even when increasing my reputation.
  • red_codecred_codec Member Posts: 44
    lunar said:

    red_codec said:

    lunar said:

    If you have Mazzy she can take care of Hexxat for you in the party.

    Fat hobbit blood? LOL
    Not exactly. She challenges and kills Hexxat after a while. As a pure thief H stands no chance to win a straight-scripted-out of the party fight with her unless you intervene.
    LOL that's so in character of mazzy. I had thought you meant mazzy offers to donate blood to feed hexxat in order to stop her feeding on innocent people.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    red_codec said:

    lunar said:

    red_codec said:

    lunar said:

    If you have Mazzy she can take care of Hexxat for you in the party.

    Fat hobbit blood? LOL
    Not exactly. She challenges and kills Hexxat after a while. As a pure thief H stands no chance to win a straight-scripted-out of the party fight with her unless you intervene.
    LOL that's so in character of mazzy. I had thought you meant mazzy offers to donate blood to feed hexxat in order to stop her feeding on innocent people.
    I hope their blood types are compatible. Speaking of which, it must be a pain to be an O- vampire.
  • red_codecred_codec Member Posts: 44
    Arunsun said:


    I hope their blood types are compatible. Speaking of which, it must be a pain to be an O- vampire.

    I don't think it works that way for vamps. They aren't doing a blood transfusion to fill their veins, they are feeding on blood as sustenance.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited June 2016
    When it happened, IIRC, there was no chance to intervene with dialogue given to my pc. Or my pc tried and failed. (maybe failed a charisma check, my pcs are generally ugly.) Mazzy just said 'that's enough! you die now!' or something among the lines and the two were out of the party and fighting to death. Mazzy won easily. H died outside of the party and was gone permanently.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    lunar said:

    When it happened, IIRC, there was no chance to intervene with dialogue given to my pc. Or my pc tried and failed. (maybe failed a charisma check, my pcs are generally ugly.) Mazzy just said 'that's enough! you die now!' or something among the lines and the two were out of the party and fighting to death. Mazzy won easily. H died outside of the party and was gone permanently.

    And this is why the term "Lawful Stupid" became a thing...

    That's one thing I really hate about Lawful Good interpretations in this game (and many other games). Is it really beyond the scope of a Lawful Good person to understand that you don't just kill someone for being "evil"?
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    edited June 2016

    lunar said:

    When it happened, IIRC, there was no chance to intervene with dialogue given to my pc. Or my pc tried and failed. (maybe failed a charisma check, my pcs are generally ugly.) Mazzy just said 'that's enough! you die now!' or something among the lines and the two were out of the party and fighting to death. Mazzy won easily. H died outside of the party and was gone permanently.

    And this is why the term "Lawful Stupid" became a thing...

    That's one thing I really hate about Lawful Good interpretations in this game (and many other games). Is it really beyond the scope of a Lawful Good person to understand that you don't just kill someone for being "evil"?
    I never understood this behaviour indeed. I can get that Keldorn and Dorn won't get along because Dorn is irredeemably Evil both in words and actions. But the fact that Keldorn hates Viccy because... she is drow feels stupid. I mean, a lawful good character should also be the optimistic kind, one that believe someone can repent, and will judge them by their actions, not the fact that they are drow or vampire.
    Hexxat isn't exactly the cliché of the bloodthirsty vampire that'd kill anyone. She does not enjoy killing, but she wants to survive
    Idem for Viccy. She will do what it takes to survive, but won't take pleasure in slaughtering everyone she meets.
    I might be wrong, but I feel that somehow these are less evil than those so-called lawful good character and their manichean vision of the world.

    Reminds me of Star Wars 3 (sorry prelogy haters). Anakin says "If you are not my ally, you are my enemy" or something along those lines, and Obi-Wan answers "Only a Sith thinks this way". Think on it, Lawful Stupid Paladins :wink:

    Edit: to avoid any confusion this last sentence was not aimed at anyone in the forum or anywhere.
  • magisenseimagisensei Member Posts: 316
    Yes the 'lawful good' stupid is really not that great but from a story telling/role-playing perspective it can make sense.

    You as the PC character will obviously know the difference between what real evil and what is not that evil you also in general will not be so prejudice because of race but the NPC did not grow up in the same world as you did.

    Paladins fight evil - they face the indoctrination of battling evil - and unfortunately that means the evil races are evil there are almost no exceptions to this. From Viconia story when you meet she is evil like and it certainly does not help that she is a drow as well. The fact that the lawful good NPC are unable to overcome their own ingrained prejudice should not be a surprise. What is annoying is that it takes a while for the conflict to reach a point of fighting - which should happen a lot sooner - if having Viconia, Dorn, Hexxat, Korgan and Edwin in the group plus a lawful good NPC then they should tell me sooner rather than later. Also the fact that if it takes time the lawful good should see that Viconia and the others (that are more neutral) are not evil - really Hexxat is not evil if you compare her to Dorn or Korgan - the lawful good NPC just don't like her because she is a vampire.

    What is funny about some of the party combinations is that although Mazzy gets into conflict with Hexxat she doesn't mind Korgann - who is quite insane and rather obviously evil - can you say prejudice on the part of Mazzy who is fine with Korgan but not Hexxat.
  • ArthasArthas Member Posts: 1,091
    Arunsun said:

    lunar said:

    When it happened, IIRC, there was no chance to intervene with dialogue given to my pc. Or my pc tried and failed. (maybe failed a charisma check, my pcs are generally ugly.) Mazzy just said 'that's enough! you die now!' or something among the lines and the two were out of the party and fighting to death. Mazzy won easily. H died outside of the party and was gone permanently.


    Edit: to avoid any confusion this last sentence was not aimed at anyone in the forum or anywhere.
    sorry mate but Keldorn is incarnation of legal good. Think about the crusade. All the people that marched in the past for the christian values were knight animated by the following of the Pope's rules, and their intent was good given the values that were right in that period of time.

    O
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited June 2016
    Keldorn's reaction is perfectly acceptable. Keldorn is a veteran paladin who will have personally met/encountered the survivors/victims of Drow raids to the surface (and possibly even fought in a few of them). The Drow are known to be a particularly perverse race who delight in murdering anyone they encounter on the surface, especially surface elves. Keyword "murder", not kill, so expect torture, rape, etc. People like Drizzt are the exception rather than the rule (at this early point in D&D history, at least) which is the reason why there's at least two TRILOGIES devoted to the adventures of the Drow elf ranger who does his damndest to prove that he's not like his fellow Drow. Keldorn's advanced age actually works for, instead of against, his attitude towards Drow - there's really nothing anyone can do against Drow raids unless someone gets REALLY lucky with advanced intel. Lacking any resolution, over time that "righteous" anger/outrage probably became hatred.

    Viconia's haughty demeanor combined with the fact that she's a cleric of Shar (one of Faerun's most cruel deities - Shar's clergy are also notorious for their lies/manipulation) and an EXTREMELY proud person who'd never back down after being insulted by what she considers a lesser being doesn't help things.

    It doesn't matter if neither of them are truly right/wrong, that fight is inevitable. The reasoning can be pretty confusing if your Keldorn/Viconia hasn't interacted much with your party mates (ie, not enough context because you don't know enough about them yet) but metagame-wise the fight makes sense.

    As for Hexxat, more than a few serial killers kill not because they revel in death and murder, but because it's just business for them. They lie, study their prey, project a false sense of security and even act all friendly and casual even as they murder their victims.
    Sound like someone you know?
    I suppose if you're immortal or someone who'll never be on the receiving end of the killing act then such a person could be considered less evil than someone like Dorn. Though I'm pretty sure more than a few potential victims who have only one life to live and who have to deal with the possibility of losing their essence (ie. levels = memories, experiences, etc) entirely in a universe where an afterlife actually exists (ie, death can actually be a good thing) or being damned for eternity would very much disagree.
    Post edited by Nuin on
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    edited June 2016
    Nuin said:

    Keldorn's reaction is perfectly acceptable. Keldorn is a veteran paladin who will have met firsthand the victims of drow raids to the surface (and possibly fought in a few of them). The Drow are known to be a particularly perverse race who delight in murdering everyone they encounter in the surface, especially surface elves. Keyword "murder", not kill - expect torture, rape, etc. People like Drizzt are the exception rather than the rule (at this point in D&D, at least) which is the reason why there's at least two TRILOGIES devoted to the adventures of the Drow elf ranger who does his damndest to prove that he's not like his fellow Drow. Keldorn's age can actually worsen such things, and that "righteous" anger towards Drow probably became hatred at some point.
    Viconia's haughty demeanor combined with the fact that she's a cleric of Shar (one of Faerun's most cruel deities - her clergy are also notorious for lying/manipulation) and an EXTREMELY proud character who would never back down after being insulted by what she considers a lesser being doesn't help things.

    It doesn't matter if neither of them are truly right/wrong, that fight is inevitable. The reasoning can be pretty confusing if your Keldorn/Viconia hasn't interacted much with your party mates (ie, not enough context because you don't know enough about them yet) but metagame-wise the fight makes sense.

    As for Hexxat, more than a few serial killers kill not because they revel in death and murder, but because it's just business for them. They lie, study their prey, project a false sense of security and even act all friendly and casual even as they murder their victims.
    Sound like someone you know?
    I suppose if you're immortal or someone who'll never be on the receiving end of the killing act then such a person could be considered less evil than someone like Dorn. Though I'm pretty sure more than a few potential victims who have only one life to live and who have to deal with the possibility of losing their essence (ie. levels = memories, experiences, etc) entirely in a universe where an afterlife actually exists (ie, death can actually be a good thing) or being damned for eternity would very much disagree.

    Hexxat does not kill for business, she kills for survival. Killing is fundamentally immoral, or so we gather in our modern civilization, I certainly agree with that. But someone who kills for business, or worse, for pleasure, is far more immoral than someone who kills for survival and dislike doing it at all. I can't really make a comparison with real world since we have no situation where you kill someone for survival except self-defense but self-defense and what Hexxat does are really different. But Hexxat won't kill innocent people unless it is necessary. She's Evil with some form of principles.
    Anyway I am not sure we'll reach an agreement, but my point is that in my mind, Hexxat is somewhat less Evil than Dorn, and not irredeemably Evil.

    As for Keldorn's reaction to Viccy, it is not that I cannot understand it, it's more that I, admitting I'm leaning towards good alignment, would give her a chance to prove herself. Everyone is presumed innoncent until proven guilty. That's how justice works nowadays, and that's also my philosophy concerning relationships with people. I try not to judge someone from rumors or hearsays, I try to get the measure of them myself, with no prejudice towards their culture or origin or whatever. And I won't be the one landing the first blow, though I'll answer if need be. But it is true that I judge that with modern standards that may not fit the Forgotten Realms
  • magisenseimagisensei Member Posts: 316
    Nuin said:



    As for Hexxat, more than a few serial killers kill not because they revel in death and murder, but because it's just business for them. They lie, study their prey, project a false sense of security and even act all friendly and casual even as they murder their victims.
    Sound like someone you know?
    I suppose if you're immortal or someone who'll never be on the receiving end of the killing act then such a person could be considered less evil than someone like Dorn. Though I'm pretty sure more than a few potential victims who have only one life to live and who have to deal with the possibility of losing their essence (ie. levels = memories, experiences, etc) entirely in a universe where an afterlife actually exists (ie, death can actually be a good thing) or being damned for eternity would very much disagree.

    Hexxat a serial killer?

    She is a vampire and that makes her evil because she is undead (no choice in the matter), her psyche through out the game does not prove that she is evil.

    As for killing, she doesn't have to kill in order to feed. Yes, she killed that one time when we meet her in the crypt besides that there are has no other killings or conflicts that is started by her.

    Even undead as she is - she continues to complete the contract assigned to her when she was alive - that is a sense of honor even if its thieves honor in completing a contract.

    Dorn in BG2 begins with his first assignment as an assassination inside a temple of all places and it only gets worse - add to that he is a blackguard (his chosen profession) which required him to create a contract with a demon - is a clear sign that he is evil. Even his dialogue is blood thirsty and evil.

  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited June 2016
    Arunsun said:


    Hexxat does not kill for business, she kills for survival. Killing is fundamentally immoral, or so we gather in our modern civilization, I certainly agree with that. But someone who kills for business, or worse, for pleasure, is far more immoral than someone who kills for survival and dislike doing it at all. I can't really make a comparison with real world since we have no situation where you kill someone for survival except self-defense but self-defense and what Hexxat does are really different. But Hexxat won't kill innocent people unless it is necessary. She's Evil with some form of principles.
    Anyway I am not sure we'll reach an agreement, but my point is that in my mind, Hexxat is somewhat less Evil than Dorn, and not irredeemably Evil.

    As for Keldorn's reaction to Viccy, it is not that I cannot understand it, it's more that I, admitting I'm leaning towards good alignment, would give her a chance to prove herself. Everyone is presumed innoncent until proven guilty. That's how justice works nowadays, and that's also my philosophy concerning relationships with people. I try not to judge someone from rumors or hearsays, I try to get the measure of them myself, with no prejudice towards their culture or origin or whatever. And I won't be the one landing the first blow, though I'll answer if need be. But it is true that I judge that with modern standards that may not fit the Forgotten Realms

    Keldorn's age seems to be the key point. It's easier to be idealistic and open-minded when you're young. Keldorn also comes from a generation where the concept of a good-aligned Drow was pretty novel (Drizzt reached the surface only a few decades earlier - Keldorn was perhaps already a squire by that time).

    I'm pretty sure Hexxat's background was meant to be open to interpretation, it's up to the player to decide how sincere she is. I prefer my interpretation simply because I've known a lot of manipulative people in my lifetime, whose words speak very differently from their actions. It seems someone actually took pains to model Hexxat after those kinds of people, down to the undermining/damaging the credibility of fellow NPCs who see through her lies-part.
    Post edited by Nuin on
Sign In or Register to comment.