Bard vs. F/M/T - place your bets!!

Rufus

So! I was once again wondering about what char to start with. It's going to be something fancy, because I like diversity.
Bard would be cool for a change and I never played the Fighter/Mage/Thief, cuz I allways thought it would suck..... but then I went over the progression tables.

Now I actually think the F/M/T is the BETTER Bard! Why? Here are the stats I calculated:

F/M/T:
lvl: 18/17/22
HP: 95
Thac0: 3
ST: 3/4/4/4/5
PP: 10
Att/round: 2
ThiefSkills: 550 points & every perk
Magic: 8th-Circle (2x)


Bard
lvl: 40
HP: 120
Thac0: 10
ST: 8/4/7/11/5
PP: 12
Att/round: 1
ThiefSkills: only pickpocket
Magic: 6th-Circle (5x)

HD=HitPoints, ST=SavingThrows, PP = ProfiemcyPoints

If this is correct, the FMT should own the Bard at 8m XP. The FMT has a set of advantages: better ST, better Thac0, more Att./round, he gas ACTUAL thieving skills like backstab (x5), open locks, etc. He has magic up to 8th circle, access to most HLAs, grandmastery (only **, thx @mjs)...
The Bard has only more lore, more HP and a crappy bardsong.

So..... I say that if you put those 2 in the arena the bard would end up begging for mercy! Your thoughts?

mjs

bards are all about support and buffing. did you factor in how a skald/Improved Bard Song will affect the group? plus did the F/M/T access any HLA? annnnd much like the F/M/T the bard can use scrolls to supplement his spell arsenal. and have you tried it with the Blade kit and the offensive/defensive spins he has access to.

and F/M/T can't achieve grand mastery, only specialisation.

HaHaCharade

Fighter/Mage/Thief would rock a Bard. Bards are simply put, a novelty. They are thieves that can't backstab, mages that can't cast high level spells, and fighters that can't fight. Their songs don't make up for their other detriments imo.

HaHaCharade

HaHaCharade said:

Fighter/Mage/Thief would rock a Bard. Bards are simply put, a novelty. They are thieves that can't backstab, mages that can't cast high level spells, and fighters that can't fight. Their songs don't make up for their other detriments imo.

I'm talking Vanilla BG1... I'm sure they get better in BG2...

Cheesebelly

One on one battle without buffs? I believe the F/M/T would own him, it's obvious.
With buffs, the bard can kill ANYTHING in the game easily. Besides, there's that spell, Tenser Transformation, which makes high level bards into pure killing machines. Add some items which you can nicely mix up with Use Any Item, and other spells that are dependent per level, scrolls even - Bard can dominate the FMT easily after that.

Rufus

HaHaCharade said:

Fighter/Mage/Thief would rock a Bard. Bards are simply put, a novelty. They are thieves that can't backstab, mages that can't cast high level spells, and fighters that can't fight. Their songs don't make up for their other detriments imo.

I'm talking Vanilla BG1... I'm sure they get better in BG2...

Well I was thinking lategame, when both reach full XP.

mjs said:

bards are all about support and buffing. did you factor in how a skald/Improved Bard Song will affect the group? plus did the F/M/T access any HLA? annnnd much like the F/M/T the bard can use scrolls to supplement his spell arsenal. and have you tried it with the Blade kit and the offensive/defensive spins he has access to.

and F/M/T can't achieve grand mastery, only specialisation.

I didn't try the FMT cuz my BG2 copy is broken. I did play a blade once though. He was pretty decent. I was assuming that the FMT gets access to fighter, mage and thief HLAs when his combined exp reaches 3m... no? Plus... he DOESNT get grandmastery?? Whyyy?? He's a fighter too after all T_T.
Since I played a blade, I didn't use bard song.

Cheesebelly said:

One on one battle without buffs? I believe the F/M/T would own him, it's obvious.
With buffs, the bard can kill ANYTHING in the game easily. Besides, there's that spell, Tenser Transformation, which makes high level bards into pure killing machines. Add some items which you can nicely mix up with Use Any Item, and other spells that are dependent per level, scrolls even - Bard can dominate the FMT easily after that.

LOL, true! I totally forgot tenser. Tensere'd bard would own FMT in combat. FMT could try to sneak & backstab & evade again though...

Cheesebelly

True, but a Bard could be Stoneskinned with, what, 20 layers of invulnerability XD

Rufus

Cheesebelly said:

True, but a Bard could be Stoneskinned with, what, 20 layers of invulnerability XD

Breach. Aaaaaaaand it's gone =P

I was really thinking of a 1v1 fight... so everything that's self buffed is OK

Dragonspear

Blade:

You're argument is sadly invalid =( Popping Offensive Spin and then Tenser's Transformation turns your bard into more whirling death than your FMT could ever hope to be. There is also something to be said for reaching your xp milestones faster. I'm not knocking FMT's, I like them as well. But in the late game scenario you mentioned, 1v1, I think a blade in particular would wipe the floor with the FMT.

And just because this is fun, I choose you @SandmanCCL for another bard topic.

@Rufus:

Also currently only single and dual classed fighters are capable of getting grand mastery in weapons. Honestly this is a good thing for FMTs because if I remember correctly they ONLY get weapon proficiency every time their fighter levels up. Which means they will have a total of 4+6 points to spend (4 at the start, 6 from fighter levels).

And yes they do get the HLAs from all 3 of their classes but most of your mage ones sadly go to waste.

Rufus

Awww you're right @Dragonspear. FMT only gets profficiency from Fighter. Didn't know.
So Bard does have 2 more in total.

I do think though, that FMT's improved whirlwind is better then blade's offensive spin.

Wondervice

Just gonna leave this here...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

Cheesebelly

Rufus said:

Cheesebelly said:

True, but a Bard could be Stoneskinned with, what, 20 layers of invulnerability XD

Breach. Aaaaaaaand it's gone =P

@Rufus : so is the invisibility

Dragonspear

@Rufus

Fairly certain offensive spin lasts longer than Greater Whirlwind though. Also I really need to play a Bard already so that way I can be a lot more certain about all their HLAs. I thought Blades might get Greater Whirlwind instead of assassination but I'm not sure.

sandmanCCL

Bards should actually get up to 8th level spells by the time they hit 40 according to AD&D, I believe I heard mentioned somewheres along the line.

Other than that, it's pretty much a dead heat so who cares.

Cheesebelly

@Dragonspear : I believe that would be the Swashbuckler - bards don't get assassination

Dragonspear

My DREAMS CHEESEBELLY. WHY MUST YOU RUIN MY DREAMS.

And @SandmanCCL I heard with a mod you can go up to level 8. We'd need @LadyRhian in all her maximum manual knowledge to give us the exact highest level for bards, simply because I'm too lazy to google it.

Moomintroll

Bards should have access to an ability to conjure some kind of wind instrument that casts spells. Something that takes the place of a high level ability but which is so underpowered as to be almost useless. Then when the F/M/T is laughing at the Bard they can use it to jab them in the eye!

Cheesebelly

If bards were able to hit 8th level spells, they'd be easily the strongest arcane spell casters in the game. *_*

@Dragonspear : sowwy

Rufus

@Dragonspear no need for double checking. Im 100% sure that every bard has access only up to 6th circle magic.

There are mods to change it to 8th circle, as intended by p&p originally
(=> http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg2tweaks/rules.php).

That would make the bards OP I guess, didn't try though.

Evinfuilt

sandmanCCL said:

Bards should actually get up to 8th level spells by the time they hit 40 according to AD&D, I believe I heard mentioned somewheres along the line.

Other than that, it's pretty much a dead heat so who cares.

Rogue Rebalancing Mod puts PnP spell progression in for Bards, it also gets rid of Time Trap... So uhm, there is that.

FrozenCells

At 8 million XP it's obviously the F/M/T. No class improves that much after level 20 so having a part-mage lvl18/17/22 character is always going to own. Nice choice of HLAs also. The Bard is quite good though and probably has its relative peak around mid/late-SoA (in group of 4-6) where it starts jumping up the levels compared to the F/M/T leading to a much better spellcasting level. At pretty much all other parts of the series I'd back F/M/T though, even with Rogue Rebalancing's level 8 spells for Bard.

I'd rather take a Fighter/Mage or a Mage/Thief though since they get level 9 spells (and IIRC get them before FMTs even get level 8 spells). Plus I find the idea of a guy strutting around with a lute/harp in combat quite unappealing...sorry bards.

Dragonspear

@Rufus I know that a mod puts it up to 8th level, but for some reason I think actual PnP was only 7th.

Cheesebelly

I dunno, wouldn't a 40th level bard with Abi-Dalzim's horrid wilting deal 40-320 magic damage? Or is it capped at some point?

Because if it would deal 40-320 magic damage, then hell, I believe Bards would own anything that walks XD

sandmanCCL

At the end of the day, it'd come down to the typical caster duel. That's why I'm saying it wouldn't matter a whole lot. Both guys would be theoretically dropping buffs and dispels on each other.

They are essentially the same class, except bards move along at a much faster rate but miss out on max spells per day and backstabs.

AHF

The HLA abilities seem the biggest difference for an 8M experience build. Having hardiness and whirlwind in addition to UAI is hard for a bard to compete with when wielding a 2 handed weapon like the Ravager. For dual wielding, the FMT can use assassination for 5x damage every hit and critical strike. When combined with improved haste, the dual-wielding FMT will have 9 attacks per round that critical every time or do 5x damage which are arguably the best melee attacks in the game.

Dantos4

While this is true, this is assuming the F/T/M can even hit the bard, who would dispel haste and trigger defensive spin (up to -10AC on top of normal AC and spells). Offensive spin then offers +2 to hit, damage and 1+ Attack per round (doubled with haste?) AND Max damage per hit. The theoretical side of it is never ending. "I use X to counter Y"... "Oh yeah? Well Z counters Y!"...

It is really one of those moot points, to be honest.
Could a max F/T/M beat a max Bard (particularly a Blade)? Yes.
Could a max Bard (Particularly a Blade) beat a max F/T/M? Yes.

What does it come down to? Playstyle, roleplaying, that sort of jazz.

10thLich

@Cheesebelly
Spells are usually capped at level 20, some spells even sooner (e.g. Fireball). Mage levels above 20 are only insofar beneficial, that they provide more spells per day.

If mods enter the equation you've got a whole slew of options:
level 50 spells (wherever it's latest version is) - does what's on the tin, removes the level 20 cap of spells and extends spell effects to 50.

BG2 Tweaks and its save penalties for high level arcane and divine spells (or however it's called) - adds save penalties to spells if your caster level is high enough . E.g. Chromatic Orb: its level 12 effect functions like Finger of Death with a +6 save bonus. With a higher caster level that bonus may be reduced or even turned into a penalty.

HLAs as special abilities: either its toned down version in Sword Coast Stratagems II, or the orginal over at Spellhold Studios. The original grants the most benefits to characters with many HLA slots, which means either Fighter/Mage/Thieves or Fighter/Mage/Clerics.

10th

Mortianna

sandmanCCL said:

At the end of the day, it'd come down to the typical caster duel. That's why I'm saying it wouldn't matter a whole lot. Both guys would be theoretically dropping buffs and dispels on each other.

They are essentially the same class, except bards move along at a much faster rate but miss out on max spells per day and backstabs.

Agreed. Being at 40th level, a Bard casting a single Flame Arrow would do 40d6 damage. Combined with a spell sequencer (cast via scroll, since they top off at 6th level spells) that would be 120d6. Once the F/M/T is debuffed of spell protections, they're toast.

PlasticGolem

Comparing character builds at the BG2 level cap is kind of pointless: at that level, they are all powerful enough to get the job done with ease in the hands of a marginally competent player.

I think that, in general, the most difficult parts of the Baldur's Gate saga are the first part of BG 1 after leaving Candlekeep, where your characters are fragile and can easily die from one or two unlucky hits, up to about 3rd level when you start to develop some resiliency to being one-shot killed; and the level 6-10 range that comprises the end of BG1 and the start of BG2. The F/M/T takes 11,400 experience points to get to level 3. A bard gets out of the critical zone at 2,500 XP and will be level 5 by the time the F/M/T hits level 3/3/3. The bard hits level 11 at 220,000 XP while the F/M/T needs 1,345,000 which puts the bard at level 16.

Both classes are pretty fragile at low levels, but the F/M/T remains in the danger zone for much longer. The odds of a F/M/T actually reaching high level without reloading a lot (if you can reload at will, you can't actually fail, so what's the point in comparing which class is better?) are probably a lot lower than the bard. Both are a lot lower than high-resilience classes like the fighter (especially the berserker), paladin (especially the cavalier and inquisitor) and combinations like the cleric/fighter. They don't develop into the terrors that F/M/Ts, blades, kensai/mages and sorcerers do, but they're still plenty powerful and a lot more likely to survive the journey.

AHF

Dantos4 said:

While this is true, this is assuming the F/T/M can even hit the bard, who would dispel haste and trigger defensive spin (up to -10AC on top of normal AC and spells). Offensive spin then offers +2 to hit, damage and 1+ Attack per round (doubled with haste?) AND Max damage per hit. The theoretical side of it is never ending. "I use X to counter Y"... "Oh yeah? Well Z counters Y!"...

It is really one of those moot points, to be honest.
Could a max F/T/M beat a max Bard (particularly a Blade)? Yes.
Could a max Bard (Particularly a Blade) beat a max F/T/M? Yes.

What does it come down to? Playstyle, roleplaying, that sort of jazz.

Nothing dispels critical hit or whirlwind. That translates to 10 attacks per round or 5 criticals per round without the haste. Offensive spin plus dual wielding plus haste gets the bard to 5 attacks per round at a much lower THACO. Defensive spin leaves the bard rooted to the spot with only 2 attacks per round.

I don't see this as a "never ending" battle of theoreticals.

If both sides can prep for the battle I can somewhat get that (although chain contingencies would seem to render the battle over pretty quickly).

AHF

PlasticGolem said:

Comparing character builds at the BG2 level cap is kind of pointless: at that level, they are all powerful enough to get the job done with ease in the hands of a marginally competent player.

I think that, in general, the most difficult parts of the Baldur's Gate saga are the first part of BG 1 after leaving Candlekeep, where your characters are fragile and can easily die from one or two unlucky hits, up to about 3rd level when you start to develop some resiliency to being one-shot killed; and the level 6-10 range that comprises the end of BG1 and the start of BG2. The F/M/T takes 11,400 experience points to get to level 3. A bard gets out of the critical zone at 2,500 XP and will be level 5 by the time the F/M/T hits level 3/3/3. The bard hits level 11 at 220,000 XP while the F/M/T needs 1,345,000 which puts the bard at level 16.

Both classes are pretty fragile at low levels, but the F/M/T remains in the danger zone for much longer. The odds of a F/M/T actually reaching high level without reloading a lot (if you can reload at will, you can't actually fail, so what's the point in comparing which class is better?) are probably a lot lower than the bard. Both are a lot lower than high-resilience classes like the fighter (especially the berserker), paladin (especially the cavalier and inquisitor) and combinations like the cleric/fighter. They don't develop into the terrors that F/M/Ts, blades, kensai/mages and sorcerers do, but they're still plenty powerful and a lot more likely to survive the journey.

I find the opposite. A F/M/T with a stealth build for the T part can pretty well dominate all stages of BG. If you run with a reduced party to concentrate the XP, this is even more the case.

A bard struggles to solo BG1 (although it is doable), while I haven't had much trouble with a F/M/T - sneak, sleep, backstab. Rinse, repeat.