Dual Class and Multi Class Resource, a good read
orosius
Member Posts: 45
Dual classing and Multi classing can be very powerful but for the individual new to the idea there is a lot to learn. I came across this page explaining it in great detail and it's very easy to read.
http://www.playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Dual_and_Multiclassing
Here it is an excerpt from link, incoming wall of text:
"Basic Information
Dual and Multiclassing can be VERY powerful if used right in Baldur's Gate. Playing the game hardcore can be a lot easier if you duel or multiclass, as they have abilities of both classes with the only drawback being that you do not reach as high of levels. Also, if considering the entire Baldur's Gate saga as a whole, dual-classing allows for the most overpowered, broken, and downright cheap meta-gaming characters possible.
Dual-classing favors starting with your primary class as the combat oriented class, and then dropping into a spell-casting class. Casters scale better later into the game, and this way you maximize the early game health and thac0. Fighter should always be the first class for any potential fighter dual-class, and thief should be the primary class for thief/mages.
Fighter Multi-Class Options
Fighter makes the most universal dual- and multi-classing option because it offers something every other class wishes they had: HP and thac0. They hit harder and can absorb more punishment than any other given class meaning your squishy thief who couldn't ever land that backstab suddenly has twice the HP and rarely misses from the shadows, or your mage suddenly has more survivability than he would have enjoyed at max level just by dual-classing at level 8.
Fighter/Cleric
Very powerful solo class and great for hardcore runs, as sanctuary is basically a free 'get out of trouble' card. Using Draw Upon Holy Might can get your strength to as high as 23(!) at higher levels, making you the best fighter in the party, and boosting your constitution to 20 or more with the spell before sleeping will restore all your HP upon sleeping.
Strengths:
1. Divine Spells and therefore healing
2. Sanctuary allows easy safe navigation of the battlefield
3. Draw upon Holy Might turns your physical stats into sheer godliness.
4. Highest possible combined saving throws in the game (especially ludicrous when combined with a high con dwarf)
Weaknesses:
1. BG1 only: Will only reach 4th level spells by level cap
2. Fighting abilities progress slowly due to splitting experience, although this is mitigated somewhat by the ability to self-buff.
3. Limited weapon selection
What spells to memorize-
Because of the fighter levels and therefore higher thac0 than a straight cleric, focus on buffs when you chose your spells (Draw Upon Holy Might, Sanctuary needed, strength of one also good), taking healing spells only as necessary. Your first and foremost concern is keeping yourself alive, so leave debuffs and holding spells to your secondary divine spellcasters.
Dual or Multi?-
Multi-classing is preferred for a BG1 only character, as the early game survivability matters without sacrificing much potential end-game power. However for those planning on important the character through the entire saga, dual-classing to cleric at level 13 of fighter will maximize the attacks per round fighters get over typical clerics while still allowing you to reach level 38, a whole two levels shy of the default cleric level cap. Berserker is the only viable kit to dual-class into a cleric because heavy armors are a must in order to utilize the unique tanking ability fighter/clerics fulfill. Additionally, multi-class fighter/clerics are limited to mastery level in any given weapon type but a dual-classed fighter/cleric, even if he dual-classed at level 2, can obtain grand mastery in any given weapon type.
Choosing a Multi-class Race-
The only three races which can even roll Fighter/Clerics are Dwarves, Half-Elves and Half-Orcs. Half-Orcs are obviously only playable in BG1 if you install BGtutu or BGT. Half-Orcs fill this well due to the extra strength, constitution, and their ability score penalty applies in the preferred fighter/cleric dump stat. If that isn't possible or you feel it's cheating, Dwarves are excellent as the dexterity penalty isn't very severe, the extra constitution is extremely helpful and most importantly, dwarven saving throws make him very difficult to crowd control. There is no meta-gaming reason to roll a half-elf over either of these choices.
Recommended stats-
Max strength, dexterity and constitution. Get at least 16 points in Wisdom. Intelligence should be at least at a 9 to read scrolls, a vital thing for clerics. Charisma is the dump stat of choice.
Proficiencies-
Warhammers and Slings are musts. The best cleric weapon in Baldur's Gate 1 is a warhammer and is relatively easy to obtain early on, and slings are literally your only option for a ranged weapon until you get a returning hammer in BG2. Clearly sword and shield spec is a must as well, for those going into BG2 who can afford to split the proficiency points away from weapons.
http://www.playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Dual_and_Multiclassing
Here it is an excerpt from link, incoming wall of text:
"Basic Information
Dual and Multiclassing can be VERY powerful if used right in Baldur's Gate. Playing the game hardcore can be a lot easier if you duel or multiclass, as they have abilities of both classes with the only drawback being that you do not reach as high of levels. Also, if considering the entire Baldur's Gate saga as a whole, dual-classing allows for the most overpowered, broken, and downright cheap meta-gaming characters possible.
Dual-classing favors starting with your primary class as the combat oriented class, and then dropping into a spell-casting class. Casters scale better later into the game, and this way you maximize the early game health and thac0. Fighter should always be the first class for any potential fighter dual-class, and thief should be the primary class for thief/mages.
Fighter Multi-Class Options
Fighter makes the most universal dual- and multi-classing option because it offers something every other class wishes they had: HP and thac0. They hit harder and can absorb more punishment than any other given class meaning your squishy thief who couldn't ever land that backstab suddenly has twice the HP and rarely misses from the shadows, or your mage suddenly has more survivability than he would have enjoyed at max level just by dual-classing at level 8.
Fighter/Cleric
Very powerful solo class and great for hardcore runs, as sanctuary is basically a free 'get out of trouble' card. Using Draw Upon Holy Might can get your strength to as high as 23(!) at higher levels, making you the best fighter in the party, and boosting your constitution to 20 or more with the spell before sleeping will restore all your HP upon sleeping.
Strengths:
1. Divine Spells and therefore healing
2. Sanctuary allows easy safe navigation of the battlefield
3. Draw upon Holy Might turns your physical stats into sheer godliness.
4. Highest possible combined saving throws in the game (especially ludicrous when combined with a high con dwarf)
Weaknesses:
1. BG1 only: Will only reach 4th level spells by level cap
2. Fighting abilities progress slowly due to splitting experience, although this is mitigated somewhat by the ability to self-buff.
3. Limited weapon selection
What spells to memorize-
Because of the fighter levels and therefore higher thac0 than a straight cleric, focus on buffs when you chose your spells (Draw Upon Holy Might, Sanctuary needed, strength of one also good), taking healing spells only as necessary. Your first and foremost concern is keeping yourself alive, so leave debuffs and holding spells to your secondary divine spellcasters.
Dual or Multi?-
Multi-classing is preferred for a BG1 only character, as the early game survivability matters without sacrificing much potential end-game power. However for those planning on important the character through the entire saga, dual-classing to cleric at level 13 of fighter will maximize the attacks per round fighters get over typical clerics while still allowing you to reach level 38, a whole two levels shy of the default cleric level cap. Berserker is the only viable kit to dual-class into a cleric because heavy armors are a must in order to utilize the unique tanking ability fighter/clerics fulfill. Additionally, multi-class fighter/clerics are limited to mastery level in any given weapon type but a dual-classed fighter/cleric, even if he dual-classed at level 2, can obtain grand mastery in any given weapon type.
Choosing a Multi-class Race-
The only three races which can even roll Fighter/Clerics are Dwarves, Half-Elves and Half-Orcs. Half-Orcs are obviously only playable in BG1 if you install BGtutu or BGT. Half-Orcs fill this well due to the extra strength, constitution, and their ability score penalty applies in the preferred fighter/cleric dump stat. If that isn't possible or you feel it's cheating, Dwarves are excellent as the dexterity penalty isn't very severe, the extra constitution is extremely helpful and most importantly, dwarven saving throws make him very difficult to crowd control. There is no meta-gaming reason to roll a half-elf over either of these choices.
Recommended stats-
Max strength, dexterity and constitution. Get at least 16 points in Wisdom. Intelligence should be at least at a 9 to read scrolls, a vital thing for clerics. Charisma is the dump stat of choice.
Proficiencies-
Warhammers and Slings are musts. The best cleric weapon in Baldur's Gate 1 is a warhammer and is relatively easy to obtain early on, and slings are literally your only option for a ranged weapon until you get a returning hammer in BG2. Clearly sword and shield spec is a must as well, for those going into BG2 who can afford to split the proficiency points away from weapons.
2
Comments
Although if you're only planning on playing BG:EE with no continuity between your PC and the PC in BG2:EE, it doesn't really matter.
I, for one, am planning for the long-term. ^.^
I should probably run through that section with a fine comb again to clean up the language and make it more concise. It's been awhile since I actually looked through that whole section.
If BG1-style dual-classing is extended to BG:EE, and if BG2-style dual classing is extended to BG2:EE, then there will be a clear disconnect between the two. Since they're using the BG2 ToB engine, I have the feeling that its dual-classing system will probably be the one that is kept throughout the entire series, since it's the path of least resistance--which, as I discussed above, is poorly thought out.
Kit to Generalist Dual Class = Makes No Sense
Generalist to Kit = Makes More Sense
Kit and no Dual Class = Makes The Most Sense
Both are indeed endorsed by 2nd edition, and the fact that BG in general was more true to 2nd edition than BG2:ToB just tells us that we should decide on the BG imo, well both options are fairly described in the rules, and imho makes sense.
two kits are actually a no-go on dual class, and in good sense.
Kits in general are no-go at multi-class, unless specific restrictions and lore/quests backs up such a take, ingame. (would require intensive reworking, for a change in imo so small and only pointing to the fact that multi-class kits would be overpowered.
I do hope hope they (trent & co.) decide on the BG take on kits and classes, as it actually matches the very rules we like to think the game is built around.
I'll go through feature requests/bug forum later and see if its applied there already, if not I'll add it.
Try to look at your own example, a phys. pedentary medicine would in my book have an impossible job at both keeping up to date with everything in that field in order for him/her to be the expert (which specilization means in this case) and at the same time become a boat mechanic from Titanic, to your average fishing sloop. - There's simply not enough days in the week to make it reasonable.
However the doctor could certainly have a side interest in fixing boats, on a average level of skill (hence no specilization)
And the mechanic could indeed, take up the task of becomming the most specialized expert in the world in his/her field, but being an all-knowing ship-mechanic god, would be impossible at the same time, as such would require sustained training/tutoring/reading/working. Things that can't happen while the other goes down.
The very fact that being a specialist is time consuming and taxing, is what the rules builds on. Also the fact that in a fantasy setting like forgotten realms, and the classes/kits available in 2nd edition are of such state that they would require some sustainment at all times.
So in short, 2x kits on dual class = 10 days a week = impossible
Take my previous example. You spend your teens and early 20's building and fixing machines, but because you live on an island you end up learning about boat engines most of all. Then you get your pennies together and go to college to learn medicine. You have not forgotten what you know about machinery and boats, but you are no longer advancing in those skills. Now you are learning medicine. Once your time at medical school and your internships and such are finished, you're a doctor. With a background in mechanics. Just because you learned medicine second doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to specialize.
Or maybe a real life example.
My dad went to college to learn how to create art. His specialty was sculpture.
He ended up becoming an Iron Worker to make his living. He didn't forget how to create art. He still creates pieces and continued doing so throughout his career as an Iron Worker. By BG2 rules he'd have to have settled on becoming a handyman or a general construction guy instead of learning a specialized trade.
I agree that from a dual-classing perspective it sounds reasonable to RP a character who was a chef till his early 30s then spent the rest of his life mastering sewing. But only humans can dual-class and if this were made available then there would be a big advantage in choosing a human over any other race.
Already people see little reason to make a pure mage when you can put in just a few fighter levels for HP, extra weapons and proficiency points. If you could make a Berserker/Conjurer you've got a poor man's F/M/C with more spells per day and no xp division between classes.
In that case why not give all the other races at least one kit in a multi-class. Again, from a purely RP perspective it makes sense to train for 2 hours a day to keep up your skills as a fighter and spend the rest of the day honing your Avenger skills.
And in that case why not train for 1 day as a Thief and another as a Fighter and another as a Cleric?
... aaand we're going to 3rd edition... ^_^
Humanity gets NO BONUSES AT ALL TO ANYTHING AT ALL EVER PERIOD AT ALL. It's one reason I like 3e. At least there were reasons to pick human over elf or dwarf.
Personally, I think that kits are supposed to represent a deep and sustained involvement in a given profession and that this level of specialization should be reserved for the second class if you are going to allow kit dual classing for gaming purposes. Real life has examples of people who are highly accomplished in multiple fields (think Da Vinci for example) but it makes more sense to me that skills would dull after non-use to the point of generalist over time rather than being cutting edge immersed in a sub-specialty. And substantial non-use is required in BG dual classing (unless you dual so early that you couldn't have been that deeply immersed in the first class to begin with).
As a real world example, someone may be highly specialized as a trumpet player after 10 years of specialty but if they take the next 11 years off (reaching higher level in something else) then I have no issue with them being treated as a generalist - i.e., skilled musician but not longer at the cutting edge of their former area of specialty. Thus it makes more sense to have the kit on the end of the divide where the person spends more of their time and effort and where they are making it the current focus of their development - as it was in BG1.
Allowing kits on both ends seems grossly overpowered to me. The last thing I want to see is the kensai/conjurer dual class.
That aside a fantastic guide.
I really should try the whole kensai/mage thing to see what all the fuss is about. So many people decrying it as "overpowered." That sounds delicious to me.
Anyway, I think f*** balance. I mean, really. You're not going to achieve it. Everyone's attempts to "balance" the game just make single-class clerics and mages that much more appealing and they are already just about the "best" classes in the game. The more character options there are, whether it'd be nonsense or total cheese, the better. If you have a kit on both ends, more power to you. Why the heck not. I think it'd be fun to run a Berzerker/Swashbuckler who goes into two-handed weapons instead of dual-wield.
edit: @Isair I just edited the section on Fighter/Mage. I honestly thought the game was hard-coded to bar any and all chest equipment from being usable for Kensai regardless of kit. Good thing to be wrong about.
But agreed, I think the debate about balance is redundant. Dual classed characters require more effort and sacrifice for a substantial part of the game. A level 13/13 Kensai/Mage would be torn apart by a 13/13 Fighter/Mage multi. So it's really an argument regarding consistant reliability vs end game power.
@sandmanCCL you've got to wonder what the personality of a Berzerker/Swashbuckler would be like... If you could kit your second class I'd have to try out a fighter/swashbluckler dual, better yet I could apply it to Shar-Teel. If my dream new BGEE cap (300,000) comes to be, she could be 7/11 using a two handed sword with five pips, have two pips in Two-handed weapon style, a point in crossbow + 3 atk & damage and + 3 AC with two attacks per round.
If not, AND they implement kit-after-dual, then man. That would be craze-balls.
You know me -- I'm always of the mind that the more limitatiions, the more constraints, the better. I don't like cheese because it weakens the game's internal integrity. It tells me that this thing I'm spending so much time on is badly produced and badly designed. Who wants to invest any part of themselves, or any time, into something like that?
I do agree with @Mortianna, though. Options like Fighter > Assassin makes a lot of sense and should be in game.
PS: That Play It Hardcore page is the best summary of dual/ multi options out there. I use it as a constant reference when I'm thinking about rerolling or just curious about the options.
To my mind, you only need enough restrictions to make the game mechanics work, and then the freedom of the players will find it's own balance with the help of the guy running the game. Granted it helps a lot that the players basicly agree to make fun characters instead of trying to break the system, but that's true in any system.
The rules which govern how Baldur's Gate works are based off AD&D, which has been around since longer than I'm sure a lot of people on this site. (Hell, my youngest brother was born in 1988 and he's a big a fan of the Baldur's Gate franchise as I am.)
I personally like what they did with 3e, but boy a whole lot of people still go back to the older rules. 3e is significantly more balanced than any AD&D product ever was, yet a lot of people don't really care for it.
The way my older brother puts it, D&D at it's heart is simply make-believe with rules. The rules dictate that wizards are more powerful than anything else. As they should be. Because in make-believe, the guy commanding the elements if not the very fabric of time itself should probably mop the floor with some meathead with a sword. "Balancing" the game would actually ruin a LOT of the charm. If everything is balanced, it actually makes it a lot less epic because then you don't actually feel like a god-figure any more. All I have to say to that is you're already here. You're already supporting this product. You've already supported the original BG titles, and you're a fan of them. So, I can't answer that question for you. You've already invested a large part of yourself in "something like that!"
I think for a game like Baldur's Gate, the best "limits" are always self-imposed anyway. I'd rather have the option to do something totally crazy and borderline game-breaking than for it to not be there, because I can always just NOT do that thing when I want a more "standard" experience. This isn't the case for every type of game, obviously, but for anything D&D-based? PnP is only limited by my imagination and whatever the buzzkill DM says. Thanks! Means a lot to hear that.
It was while writing that back in the day that I came to the conclusion Gnomes are my favorite race in the game, followed by dwarves. I would like halfling a lot more if you could roll wizard with them.