Skip to content

(Spoilers) SoD and the Baldur's Gate series: Which romances just *work*?

CalemyrCalemyr Member Posts: 238
in Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear
As an interquel, SoD shoves its way between BG1 (no romance) and BG2 (with pretty solid romance arcs). Not every one is a gem (Hexxat is often mocked, few people can stand Anomen long enough to get to like him, Safana is... **shudder**), but the BG series has some pretty solid ones. Aerie, Jaheira, and Viconia all have their fans because each arc caters to a different kind of relationship and story, and all are well done for their specific niche.

Plus there are mods. Glorious, glorious mods that add infinite diversity to the scope of the game. BG1NPC turns several BG1 exclusive NPCs like Dynaheir, Coran, and Shar-Teel into romantic options, while mods like Fade, Kelsey, and Sheena add new companions with their own romance arcs.

The addition of SoD changes the dynamics of a lot of this, however. In some cases this is good, in others it distracts. Does giving Viconia a mini-romance in SoD add to the BG2 arc, or does it detract from it? Does Neera's reunion with Adoy adequately explain why the lovely and lively half-elf went her own way after BG1?

When you look at the series as a whole, all three games and any mods you care to add, what romances are the best? By whatever standard you favor, of course. For me, the metrics are emotional impact, narrative consistency, and entertainment value.

I'm a big fan of mods (as I imagine is obvious). Until SoD, my default headcanon was Dynaheir (BG1NPC) in BG1 and Nalia (JCompton's de'Arnise Romance mod) in BG2, with my default character being intelligent and dignified enough to keep up with these high class ladies. I like to envision the Scion walking away from ToB to settle down as Lord de'Arnise, while "the Scion" vanishes into obscurity and legend, happily whiling away his days in the study with his family.

After SoD... I'm not certain. Until a SODNPC mod extends her, Dynaheir now outlives her story, turning it from tragic to awkward. Corwin really appeals to me, but she would need BG2 content to make it work. I always love the idea of the Scion (who cruelly had their family stripped away from them) ultimately having a family to come home to at the end of the journey. Whatever your opinion of Roma, she's probably better than Aerie juggling a mace and a newborn throughout Throne of Bhaal.

Other runners up: I enjoy all three of the original female LIs, with Jaheira being the most satisfying and Viconia only being the worst due to a needlessly tragic conclusion. There a number of good mod options, but too many of them lack ToB content, which is a deal breaker for me (Nalia only gets a pass because I can imagine her needing to represent her land in the Scion's absence). Sheena is pretty darn cool, and Fade is fun in a mischievous way. And, even though I've heard such bad things about it, the temptation to pair Hexxat with an Undead Hunter is hard for me to resist ("How do you have a relationship with a vampire?" "Immunity to level drain helps.").

So, what are your opinions? Which romances are your favorite? Which ones, if any, are all the stronger for SoD's contributions? Which ones would you like to see expanded, either as mods or as official content?

Comments

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited June 2016
    Part of the problem with SoD is that they didn't tweak BG2's script at all to reference content that - if one were playing the series sequentially - really should have come to mind. Safana's a good example: her betrayal in BG2 makes sense if you were just a convenient ally in BG1, but if you were sleeping with her she wouldn't necessarily be as quick to throw you away (look at how she's still schlepping Coran everywhere).

    The same is true for Dorn: he's pretty reserved in the first game, and only makes a pass at you in BG2 after you've proven yourself worthy of trust. Yet by the end of SoD he's pretty openly talking about how much he wants to give you the Avernus equivalent of bathroom stall sex. It retroactively makes his casual greeting in BG2 mystifying.

    As for which romance is my favorite... I'd say Dorn and Rasaad, simply because they're the most effective at achieving what they're trying to do. I always had real problems with the prospect of romancing Aerie, Jaheira and/or Viconia (owing largely to how the bar for writing women wasn't quite up to snuff in 2000 - Aerie is ridiculously virginal to the extent that you have to refuse sex in order to continue the romance, and then the first time you sleep together she gets pregnant; Jaheira's your dad's widowed best friend, and that's creepy on so many levels; Viconia goes the opposite direction where she gets hysterical, calls herself a whore, etc. and you just need to ride out her insults until her alignment changes). Neera's an intriguing counterpoint to them on account of she doesn't actually need you to do anything for her, but some of her lines and voice acting can be pretty cringeworthy.

    The one that absolutely needs to be expanded is Hexxat's. All the dummied-out content in that romance is still in the dialog.tlk, and a modder here has already proven that vampire CHARNAMEs can work in-game. Without it, her motivations are circular and her entire character arc is rendered completely pointless (she puts in a ridiculous amount of effort and fights so hard to survive so Larloch can kill her by making her human, and then she throws all that away on your say-so and the vague promise that maybe someday you'll kill her instead? What is this?).
  • CalemyrCalemyr Member Posts: 238
    Never played against Hexxat (she's on my list, but not that high). As I understand it, though, she is terrified of the concept of dying as a vampire. She will sell herself into indentured servitude to a legendary lich if she believes he can make her human, even if the transformation will kill her, because she will at least die as a human. Given her adamant refusal to drop that amulet of Ubtao, it's likely that she has a very strong religious foundation that she tries to deny because it goes against her condition, but it paints clearly paints a bleak fate for vampires that she cannot get out her head. Imagine the conflicts of a Catholic vampire and you're on the way to figuring her out, I think.

    Rasaad's is sweet. It's nice to play a pleasant character, and Rasaad's sweetheart has plenty of chances to be bright and fun and mischievous. It almost feels like you're playing Imoen, truth be told. I do wish his story ended better, though.

    Not a fan of Dorn's, personally. As a character, he's interesting. The romance, however... I dropped it quickly, just creeped me out. Not my style. But then again, I liked the innocence of Aerie's arc, and one of the things that I initially liked about Saerileth is that it did things in what is conventionally considered the correct order. ("No ding ding without the wedding ring!" - Robin Hood: Men in Tights) Not every character needs it, but it's nice to see that stuff respected once in a while. (Saerileth just finds new problems to have with a romance arc instead.)

    Jaheira's is my favorite, I'll admit, more because of the emotional range she goes through. It feels more like a proper partnership than a fling, if you follow. The whole "dating my godmother" thing is unfortunate, but then this is D&D, and the level unfortunate implication thing is part of the game once you have a setting with half-trolls, half-ogres, and girdles/scrolls of gender bending, much less the absurd range in lifespans available. A half orc dating a drow? He'll go from ugly baby to senior citizen and she'll have hardly aged at all. Fortunately that's not a fate Vicci is ever faced with.
  • MandragoraMandragora Member Posts: 79
    Well, i cant resist Viconia. She had hard and unfair life and shes not that evil once you get to know her more...i like that shes a bit agressive and is not some fuzzy bunny like Aerie :smiley: Once you tame that wild evil woman shell be most trustworthy.
    Tried with Jaheira but meh, was weird :smiley:
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    Calemyr said:

    Never played against Hexxat (she's on my list, but not that high). As I understand it, though, she is terrified of the concept of dying as a vampire. She will sell herself into indentured servitude to a legendary lich if she believes he can make her human, even if the transformation will kill her, because she will at least die as a human. Given her adamant refusal to drop that amulet of Ubtao, it's likely that she has a very strong religious foundation that she tries to deny because it goes against her condition, but it paints clearly paints a bleak fate for vampires that she cannot get out her head. Imagine the conflicts of a Catholic vampire and you're on the way to figuring her out, I think.

    If any of that had actually been in the game in any capacity, she might've arguably been one of the most compelling characters in the EEs. Sadly, the only rationale she gives for her actions is that she wants to see the sun; it's not even clear if she knew that becoming human again would instantly kill her, since she only extracts a promise from you to end her life if she doesn't ask L to change her back.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    That's a very interesting and unique perspective! Thanks for sharing. :)

    Admittedly, part of my problem with the original romances is that they're very much written in the framework of the most traditional fantasy narratives - it's not just that Aerie is a damsel in distress, it's that her personality and backstory make her the perfect love interest for a "white knight"-type hero. The same goes for Viconia, where you have to have the patience of a saint to ultimately show her the wrongness of her ways and convert her; and with Jaheira it's basically the Battle Couple trope played completely straight.

    Which is all well and good, except that I personally tend to approach RPGs from a subversive direction when possible: if I have a chance to play against genre expectations and stereotypes, I'll usually take it. The nice thing about the majority of EE romances is that, because they're a product of more contemporary sensibilities, they never quite play out along conventional lines.
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 676
    Yeah the Safana part is even more weird after SoD. The cloak you found in her quest during bg1 even has something to do with lycanthropy. That could have been referenced or perhaps setup during SoD to explain why Safana ended up with werewolves in the first place. Also could have given an explanation of why Lanshear was so interested in Coran.

    The pieces were all there, but they didn't use them.
  • VbibbiVbibbi Member Posts: 229
    I think this will depend on whether BG2 gets any additional content based on SoD. If not, then Corwin, Glint, and Voghlin are probably best since there is no dissonance with no mention of SoD romance in BG2. I haven't played Viconia's SoD romance, but I would think it's odd that she doesn't reference our relationship at all prior to Athkatla. Of course, I think her presence in SoD was a bit of a retcon anyway, as her BG2 lovetalks mention settling down near Beregost for some time. I don't see how she could have been settled for that long if she only does this after returning from Dragonspear. Is there a canon estimate of how long Charname is Irenicus' prisoner? Is it weeks or months?
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    with viconia from what i hear it's more a friendship that ends with hints of a romance so it does not contradict bg2.

    as for time lines. it's been assumed the time between the kidnapping and your escape was about a year.
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    I love the fact that Neera doesn't need you. She has her own life, her own dreams, her own goals, and she will go off to pursue them when and if she needs to. You can accommodate that, or... well, I guess you just weren't meant to be.

    This is a vanishingly rare trait in fictional love interests, despite being a pretty common (and to my mind desirable) one in real-life love interests.

    (Neera's delightful chaotic neutral selfish whims and towering arrogance are less desirable in real life, but very entertaining to me in game.)

    SoD actually improved the arc of her romance (and character arc), too, which was a nice bonus and makes her one of the "smoothest" romances that spans more than one game.
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    megamike15 said:

    as for time lines. it's been assumed the time between the kidnapping and your escape was about a year.

    Not between kidnapping and escape. Between the end of BG1 and the start of BG2.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    scriver said:

    megamike15 said:

    as for time lines. it's been assumed the time between the kidnapping and your escape was about a year.

    Not between kidnapping and escape. Between the end of BG1 and the start of BG2.
    It is between a few months to a year at most. I believe BG1 ends in 1368 and BG2 begins in 1369, although I don't recall seeing months listed so I guess it could be a a few months over a year if BG1 ended at the beginning of 1368 and BG2 started a few months into 1369.
  • CalemyrCalemyr Member Posts: 238
    @Ayiekie: I like. You raise a point. Without SoD you see her go from self-centered exile in BG1 to champion of her people in BG2, with no real transition to speak of. SoD adds in the return of Adoy, and the weight of his news, and thus you get Neera's solemn "a cause bigger than me" moment, completing the broken chain that seemed so jarring before. She definitely was improved by SoD, I think. Good call.

    Though I won't say there aren't things about it that still needle me. Neera's having a boyfriend in Baldur's Gate between games was a bummer before, but it's a little more problematic when the time frame there was the time it took to get from the Scion's prison cell to her inn room to pack up and ship out. Her permanent "it's complicated" relationship status can get old at times and there's the fact that she's a wild mage - sure, it adds to her character, but nothing screws with the game quite as brutally as wild magic - even wizard slayers aren't as harmful to the game. Her voice acting is solid, I think, but has a certain pitch that can grind gears for some people. That said, I did like the fact that she was a person herself, at times calling out the Scion for their myopia.

    Okay, here's another question along the same vein: What versions of the Scion make the best mates to certain romantic interests? Do you take satisfaction in pairing Hexxat with an Undead Hunter? Rasaad with a bard? Dorn with a dragon disciple?
  • VbibbiVbibbi Member Posts: 229
    I've honestly never RP'ed Charname's class in relation to any LI. I might have had some meta realization when Anomen was whinging on about how Charname had it better being a hero so easily by defeating Sarevok, and she happened to be a paladin, so that ties in well to his backstory of not being able to train as a paladin due to lack of sponsorship and instead going through the Church of Helm.



    So for Anomen, I think he would best appreciate a warrior (any variant) or cleric. He wouldn't directly be opposed to any class, as what he really wants is acceptance no matter what, but he would think that a rogue type would taint his image for the Order. And with Amn's views on mages, he wouldn't be as keen to romance a wizard or sorcerer. Mentioning the above, I think he would ultimately be fine with a paladin but there would be an inferiority complex going on at first.

    For Viconia, I think she would prefer a fighter, barbarian, wizard/sorcerer, or thief. Paladins and rangers are too intrinsically tied to good alignment, monk is too rigid, bards too foolish and foppish, druids represent the surface wilderness that she doesn't understand, and she's used to only females being clerics in drow society. Plus, being a cleric of Shar, she wouldn't want to compromise her faith by romancing a priest from another faith.

    Jaheira and Aerie would probably be less restrictive. Jaheira because she's already known Charname since BG1 and has grown used to him as his class already. Aerie as she's biased more on alignment and deeds than class. Maybe she'd be more leery of a thief, but otherwise no big issues.



    I haven't fully played through any of the EE romances so I'm really going by my knowledge of them as companions rather than romances.


    Dorn I think would approve of warriors (except paladins), clerics of an evil faith, druids focusing on the destructive side of nature (Shadow Druids, etc), martial-oriented thieves like assassins or swashbucklers, and wizards/sorcerers. Like Viconia, he'd find bards too foolish, base class thieves as spineless rather than ruthless. Any class which is able to prove their power, though, would be okay in his book. It's more proving how the class skills can be deadly rather than judging on the class by itself.

    For Rasaad, I think he's like Aerie in caring more about alignment and deeds rather than class. None of his dialogue really focuses on the martial aspect of being a monk, IIRC, but rather on Selune's dogma and the fight against Shar. He could find the good to any class as long as Charname doesn't worship Shar.

    Neera might get along better with a wizard/sorcerer, or she might be jealous that their magic is more reliable (assuming Charname isn't a wild mage). Otherwise I could see her going for a paladin or fighter for the romantic imagery.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    Good points @Vbibbi. I actually did the Viconia romance not too long ago with a neutral F/C and I felt like it worked okay RP-wise since she changed alignment to neutral. I wish they could have recorded the voice actress saying "In Helm's name" to replace the normal line once she changes over. :/
  • VbibbiVbibbi Member Posts: 229
    mf2112 said:

    Good points @Vbibbi. I actually did the Viconia romance not too long ago with a neutral F/C and I felt like it worked okay RP-wise since she changed alignment to neutral. I wish they could have recorded the voice actress saying "In Helm's name" to replace the normal line once she changes over. :/

    I haven't played a game with her changing alignment in years so I don't remember it too clearly. But from what I remember, she doesn't actually change worshiping Shar does she? The problem with Viconia is that AFAIK there aren't a lot of appropriate FR deities for her TN self. I headcanoned that she became Charname's first priestess as she mentions wanting to do if we become a god. She could be like Fall from Grace and worship a concept or theological ideal rather than a specific deity.
  • mf2112mf2112 Member, Moderator Posts: 1,919
    Vbibbi said:

    mf2112 said:

    Good points @Vbibbi. I actually did the Viconia romance not too long ago with a neutral F/C and I felt like it worked okay RP-wise since she changed alignment to neutral. I wish they could have recorded the voice actress saying "In Helm's name" to replace the normal line once she changes over. :/

    I haven't played a game with her changing alignment in years so I don't remember it too clearly. But from what I remember, she doesn't actually change worshiping Shar does she? The problem with Viconia is that AFAIK there aren't a lot of appropriate FR deities for her TN self. I headcanoned that she became Charname's first priestess as she mentions wanting to do if we become a god. She could be like Fall from Grace and worship a concept or theological ideal rather than a specific deity.
    Heh...literally discussing that right now with @Lord_Tansheron. :)
  • CalemyrCalemyr Member Posts: 238
    Been a while over here as well, but I don't think Viconia addresses her faith in the conversation, just that maybe the drow are wrong. Shar is still the only surface deity to take her in, however, so that isn't going to change in the short term.

    For the record, my head canon version of the Scion is a refluffed Skald, with bardic music representing leadership skill and everything else representing a man fascinated with every aspect of life. I just like the idea of a hero whose power is not his own might, but that which he brings out in others. "He was competent enough with swords and spells, but they weren't what made him the legend he became. It was only when he put them aside and thought things through that he showed his true might, turning us into his weapons."
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    Whoah, so many insightful comments here!
    In Bg1 I usually romance dynaheir (npc project) and disable her "dying cutscene", her romance has very rich dialogues which have tp do with the original, and it feels so natural and dynamic.

    But there's the issue of SoD , isnt there? Well, I consider that dynah and I broke up because we knew that it would lead to her death eventually . It's also a breath of fresh air to have new companions and interact with them.

    In BG2 I usually romance either viconia or aerie, but here's the catch: It's more romantic when the "nice guy" falls for the dark elf, or the "chaotic type" falls for aerie. It makes both charname and his romantic interest learn through the story.

  • ThrairThrair Member Posts: 10
    I usually played a Dwarf Fighter/Cleric back in the day, so I never even really knew about the romances (no love for the dwarves). Plus I was a kid at the time and wouldn't care, given I just wanted to go slay dragons and get cool weapons.

    However, now that I'm playing EE and branching out to different character builds... it does make me sad that there's no romance option for Mazzy. Sue me, but I love her character. I include her in pretty much every ToB run as my token archer.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Yes, Mazzy needs a romance. Sadly, there aren't even any mods for one.
  • OtherguyOtherguy Member Posts: 157
    Mazzy would be a natural option for a good/neutral shortie, something the game sorely lacks.

    Aerie is the only female romance option I would even consider. She is quite lovely, altruistic, kind, strong, what's not to like?

    Jaheira is also a very well written character, if it wasn't for BG1 and Khalid I could definately see her as an option. Now it is a no from me though.

    Neera is VERY egoistic, also chaotic neutral is a no no for me.

    Vic, NO, get away from me!

    I have never romanced a male character, but Rasaad seems a decent sort even if his quest in BG2 is kind of terrible. He seems like the male equivalent to Aerie.
Sign In or Register to comment.

2024 Overhaul Games, a division of Beamdog. © 2024 Hasbro, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Baldur's Gate, Dungeons & Dragons, D&D, Forgotten Realms, Baldur's Gate, Wizards of the Coast and their logos are trademarks of Wizards of the Coast LLC in the U.S.A. and other countries, and are used with permission. Hasbro and its logo are trademarks of Hasbro, Inc. and are used with permission. © 1998 BioWare Corp. All Rights Reserved. BioWare, the BioWare Infinity Engine and the BioWare logo are trademarks of Bioware Corp. Black Isle Studios and the Black Isle Studios logo are trademarks of Interplay Entertainment Corp. Atari and the Atari logo are trademarks owned by Atari Interactive, Inc. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.