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Haer'Dalis any good? What's your verdict?

2

Comments

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,571

    Mislead is one of the big cheese spells, not only can you abuse the clone for singing, it will also result in your character remaining invisible forever as long as the clone is alive - park it in a nice safe corner somewhere and enjoy unbreakable invisibility (including infinite backstabs if you are a thief).

    If it were not for the unbreakable invisibility it would be a straight-off worse version of Improved invisibility on a higher spell slot.
    If I were to rework the spell I'd keep the idea of persistent invisibility though I'd tune it down. What comes to mind would be weakening the illusion with every action taken;
    After X actions that would break invisibility, you become "half-invisible" as with Improved invisibility once you are revealed
    After another X actions that would break invisibility, you are revealed.
    Your clone stays alive for the duration of the spell or until killed.

    Gotural
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    Just have the clone disappear if you move too far away from it? That seems to be the cause of most of the issues, the fact that you can just park it at the other end of the level and never have it in danger of dying/dispelling.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,571

    Just have the clone disappear if you move too far away from it? That seems to be the cause of most of the issues, the fact that you can just park it at the other end of the level and never have it in danger of dying/dispelling.

    You'd still be able cheese pretty hard with SI:Divination and an invisibility spell on the clone though.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    Clone shouldn't be buffable. It's just an illusion, right? Can take a few hits (or pretend to), but buffing magic shouldn't work, I don't think. Makes little sense.

    Well, I guess you could go on and on in a weird spiral of cheese and anti-cheese...

  • Artemius_IArtemius_I Member Posts: 2,628
    Just make the Mislead disappear if it leaves the caster's sight range and it wouldn't be a problem. I would also like it better if the clone died in a single hit.

  • OtherguyOtherguy Member Posts: 157
    edited July 2016
    Personally I do not like Haer'dalis. But he is a very good tank all the way from chapter 2 until Melissan. Never expect him to do any serious damage though, he is not a true fighter/mage. I would never use HLA song with mislead clone or other "cheese" but if you take that possibility into the equation he is super powerful in any party.

    He requires a lot of resting though, a lot...

  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    I like him. Great supporting character. He kind of serves a double role as support, really. Arcane AND melee support.

    Aerakar
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    Commenting so as to add thread to my Participated file. Have never used Haer'dalis as core member of any playthrough but all this sounds interesting. Particularly because of the romance line with Aerie and possibility of a Tiefling rival that you need to outmaneuver.

    The idea of multiple copies with Improved Bard Song is nice. Particularly if you set a personal challenge for your playthrough of creating a decent Rap lyric each time Bard Song is used. Gettin' down with the Dude!!

    Aerakar
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    the discussion is quite old.
    now in EE multiple issues of the enhanced bard song does not stack any more, and this is really bad as it happens also if you have 3 bards in the party, let's say haer dalis, keto from the mod and a charname one.
    to prevent a possible tactic by someone regarded as cheese a completely legit one, having 3 toons using their hla at the same time, is now impossible. il like to say that if a fighter has gww active the other fighters can not use their own gww.
    a player that is using (or abusing, depends on personal opinion) multiple clones is doing it intentionally, in his own game. and using the helm, some scrolls and some ingenuity is possible to have a lot of clones singing at the same time, without actually waste the scrolls. in my experimentation i was able to get like +80 ac, thac0 and damage for the party, in a real fight (prince of demons).
    it was, and still is in original not EE game, really powerful, and a wise player should self restrain from things that make the game too easy. the same is true for spamming fireballs in the fog of war, setting traps in a known spawn point and so on.
    but nerfing the song stacking makes the purpose of having more than 1 bard at the same time not an interesting option any more (actually i had runs with 2 bards).

    further more the AOE of the enhanced song, that in original was the whole area, now is quite small, not only is no more possible to hide the clone in the opposite part of the area, thing that is very lame imo, but is impossible to have all the party benefit of the buff at the same time if you use mlee and ranged toons at the same time or if your tactic is to divide the enemies and your fighters are not all close to each other. in soch situations is virtually impossible to have the bard/clone in a position that allows him to have all the party in the aoe of his song in a real battle situation. at least as i like to fight the battles, probably with a more static approach it would be different.

    blades and haer dalis are still fun and powerful to play if you know how to use them. at low level haer dalis can tank all the random vampire encounters taking no damage and getting level drained only on crit, at high levels he is devastating with the sword from hell trials and scarlet in off hand. but i find that EE has nerfed the enhanced song, that imo was the main reason to have a bard in the party, to a joke.

    in my original games runs i have often haer dalis or an other bard singing and fighting at the same time, and as a F/M can cast and fight in the same round i don't see a reason why a blade can not sing and fight.
    also this is almost impossible in EE cause the way autopause work and the song works make it a nightmare.
    in original you trigger on the autopause on round end and as the one of haer dalis triggers you wait a split second then order him to attack and after he has done his apr set him to sing and wait for next round.
    in EE is no more possible. to have him fighting when he was at the same time buffing the rest of the party and giving himself -10 AC (same as defensive spin, but for free and while moving around) made him useful for the party, as useful or more than a F/M alternative. and a single clone was maybe needed only for the toughest battles.

    i still play him or other bards in original, in EE i do it very seldom.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,674
    Blades are an amazing class. I actually consider them the best single class in the game (multiclasses are a whole other can of worms). If you're using the Blade for his song, you're doing it wrong. Blades are nigh invulnerable blenders. Buff up, pop offensive spin, and watch everything in melee die.

    gorgonzolaMirandel
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    this is also how i use them, but in original i can do it while they sing and all the party benefits of their song, in EE is no more possible. also for me comparing them with multi or dual classes comes natural as i seldom have single class toons in my party. with the partial exception of korgan i find plain fighters too squishy and lacking of tanking power, so the mage self buffs on a toon that has fighting capability is ot a special thing for me, is the way i usually go.

    compared to a plain fighter a blade hits less and tanks a lot better. compared to a FMT he wins only in lore and in spells that depend on caster level, but will never have the lev 7 and 8 ones a FMT can get (simulacrum, spell trigger and sequencer to store self buffs, and many others that make a FMT so wonderful). if we don't factor in the song, used while he is fighting. with the song active and an offensive spin active a blade gets -10AC from the song, better damage and thac0 on his increased apr and dmg by the spin, while all the party benefits of the triple +4 bonus. hard to tell who is more effective and useful for the party, my original game haer dalis makes jan and aerie more viable in mlee, or while backstabbing in the case of the gnome. in EE i can not manage to have him sing and fight at the same time and if i send my thief to backstab he is usually too far to help him with the song.

    in EE i can certainly agree with you when you say "If you're using the Blade for his song, you're doing it wrong", and it happens that the few times i have a blade in my EE party he sings very seldom. in original and with a little micromanaging the song is what makes shine an already good kit. singing and fighting, not stacking singing clones, thing that i do only for experimentation.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 508
    Why would bard songs stack? Either you hear the song or you don't. Can't double pick a lock either.

    ThacoBell
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    a choir sings in a more powerful way than a single person.
    from the RP point of view you can imagine the song as an artistic thing that enhances your party boosting their enthusiasm, and then a choir can work better than a single singer, but not to the point that the effect is multiplied by the number of singers.
    or, like i do, you can imagine it more like the effect of the horns in the lord of the rings saga, and then is more a magical thing, and in BG some magical effects stack (see web) and other ones don't (see haste).

    from the mechanical point of view the bard song had an aoe wide enough to make it affect the whole party and now it does not, could stack if singed by many bards, or by a bard and his clones, and now has a wierd behavior. because the enhanced song and the song of a skald stack, but not 2 songs of skalds of the same level or 2 enhanced ones. i would say that if the song of a skald and the hla one stack also identical songs from more of 1 bards should do it. about using clones is a tactic (or cheese as someone can prefer to call it) that has to be performed intentionally by a player in his own single player game.
    i fail to see the reason why the EE devs are so careful in closing possible exploits that if a player don't want to use can easily avoid, but for other players are/were a source of fun.
    an other change that is made is that now singing break invisibility, and this combined with the too small aoe makes even more problematic to use a clone to sing, unless you abuse how the AI is idiot and predictable.

    i like those games cause they can be played in a number of different ways, role playing strictly or power gaming, modding in difficulty enhancers or more powerful items, rolling average stats or rolling super high ones, choosing to have really high HP (by lowering the difficulty on level up) or having average ones, and the latter is more effective than how many people think, try and you will see...
    those are not player versus player games where each cheat or unbalancing thing is an issue, are games that a single player, or a group of player that can easily agree what to allow and what not, play against the engine.
    i like the idea of developers that enhance an old but still fantastic game, but i really don't appreciate when they close things that used to be and that are clearly intentional. as a matter of fact i find myself using more the original game than the EE for this very reason.


  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 508
    Yeah, I don't think a choir does sing in a more powerful way than a single person.

    If music was more moving the more voices it had then the radio would be filled with choir music. The biggest choirs would always top the sales charts. So on and so forth.

    gorgonzolaThacoBellGotural
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    edited October 6
    try to listen the music live and not trough a radio...
    carreras or pavarotti are awesome singers, but will never generate the same power and energy that the choir generates in the last movement of the 9 symphony by beethoven.
    if you hear it live it punches you like a truck...
    a single singer can deeply move you in other aspects, love, melancholy, sadness or pure joy, but if we talk of raw power, pure energy flowing, nothing can compare to a choir.

    EDIT:just a little example

    at 1:28 the choir kicks in and imho the energy punch is clear and loud. even trough speakers, live and without amplification it would have been much more.

    UnderstandMouseMagic
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 508
    I've heard choir music, man. I've even been in a choir. The idea that music becomes more powerful with more voices is a fiction you invented to justify bard songs stacking.

    ThacoBellsubtledoctor
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    about the music is only opinions, i stand on mine and not to justify anything, only cause is how i feel when i listen to choirs compared to single performers. but i respect your different feelings, what music do to us is quite subjective.

    i justify the bard songs stacking cause i see them as a magic action, as i had already told


    or, like i do, you can imagine it more like the effect of the horns in the lord of the rings saga, and then is more a magical thing, and in BG some magical effects stack

    i can not RP a song having the effects the bard song has regarding it as a mundane song, to have such powerful effects for me it has to be some form of magic, like the haste spell or the blur one are magic.
    then, if someone agree that the bard song is not just a song but a magical thing, similar to spells in nature but a hla the bard can use at will, we can debate if it is a magic action that must stack or not, cause some other magic actions (spells) stack and other ones do not.

    and i would have preferred the developers giving to the players the chance to decide by themselves instead of enforcing their opinion on us. for the reasons i already told about, it is stacking in the original and to have more than 1 song active at the same time is a deliberate decision of the player, not something that ruin the gaming experience of those who don't want to stack them.

    by the way i usually don't use clones to stack songs in my original game runs, i have done it, up to a triple +80, cause is fun to do it sometimes and i wanted to test in real battles the thing. i had also a sorcerer spamming wishes to have continuous rest that time, so i was able to tank the demon prince while i was killing his gated helpers for about 36M xp, a looooong battle with no saves in between. but singing clones is not the way i usually go with blades, i make them sing while they fight. and i believe that if in EE this is no more possible or extremely time consuming to do, is not for an intentional nerf by the devs, it is because they changed the way song and autopause interact.
    i still find blades powerful in EE, even with their song that is no more useful in my eyes, or better marginally useful as most of the times i don't pre buff if i don't have an in game clue that the buff is needed so having a bard singing avoid that my party gets panicked until i cast spells that protect them from fear.
    i still find them powerful but i almost don't play them any more, for me the song is an important part of the bard, RP wise, is what makes him special, as the FMT can have almost every other bard characteristic in a better way (fighter's thaco and apr are superior to the offensive spin). i don't see reasons to play a bard with a song that is now a joke, i prefer other classes as i can play the old flavored one in the original game that i am still playing. even if in the original game i very seldom use the mislead clone(s) to sing, as almost never use them with my FMTs to backstab.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 508
    Of course music is subjective. You're totally entitled to like choir music. We all like certain kinds of music better than others. To say choir music is universally more powerful is just false though. If music became more powerful with more voices, that would be how we'd do all our music.

    ThacoBellgorgonzola
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 595

    Yeah, I don't think a choir does sing in a more powerful way than a single person.

    If music was more moving the more voices it had then the radio would be filled with choir music. The biggest choirs would always top the sales charts. So on and so forth.

    Yeah.

    Anecdotally, I have been brought to tears several times by several different singers singing different songs.

    I have never been brought to tears by a choir.

    Consider the circumstances.

    First, choirs need practice, lots of practice. We're throwing random strangers together who MIGHT be together for a few months, at best. And most of the time it is NOT practicing singing together.

    Second, we're talking about people trying to sing together, in the middle of a BATTLE.

    ThacoBell
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,569
    Imho, a truly great choir is better than it's component singers, but that is assuming a group of actually trained singers. Soloists are inherently limited, only throat singers iirc can sing multiple notes simultaneously.

    Imho the reason solo or duet singing is bigger in pop is because its mentally easier to listen to, and by-and-large pop music succeeds by being easy to listen to. But even in some pop music choirs are used to add oomph; yes, a soloist might be very moving, but a group has the ability to do more powerful music I'd say. If pop music though is music that you think of as 'powerful' or 'moving' you might consider expanding your listening habits.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703



    Anecdotally, I have been brought to tears several times by several different singers singing different songs.
    I have never been brought to tears by a choir.


    a single singer can deeply move you in other aspects, love, melancholy, sadness or pure joy, but if we talk of raw power, pure energy flowing, nothing can compare to a choir.




    Second, we're talking about people trying to sing together, in the middle of a BATTLE.

    yep, this is why i prefer to RP that the song is a magical act, if it would have been a normal song, supposing that your party mates can hear you trough the clashing of swords and shields, they would anyway be occupied in other things than listening you, it has to be magical to have the effect it has on the people.
    one more clue that is magical is that it protects from fear, even the magic one, not only the normal fear everybody but idiots has facing powerful enemies and monsters.


  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 595
    DreadKhan said:

    Imho the reason solo or duet singing is bigger in pop is because its mentally easier to listen to, and by-and-large pop music succeeds by being easy to listen to. But even in some pop music choirs are used to add oomph; yes, a soloist might be very moving, but a group has the ability to do more powerful music I'd say. If pop music though is music that you think of as 'powerful' or 'moving' you might consider expanding your listening habits.

    I don't think I can expand my listening habits any more. I am definitely eclectic in my tastes, I go far beyond "pop" music. I had a huge paragraph covering what I listen to but I deleted it because it was getting too long. Pretty much almost every single genre over the last 50 years, plus classical orchestra, plus international music.

    ThacoBellgorgonzolaEadwyn_G8keeper
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,770
    I love that this turned into an argument about choir music. :lol:

    Choirs are powerful but solos are powerful too. What if an amazing solo was sumg by 3 singers instead of 1? Would it be 3 times more powerful? Or would it actually lose something?

    That's all I'll say about music. Regarding bard song, it is clearly a magical effect. It's like the Chant or Bless spell: applying it from multiple sources doesn't improve the outcome; it's Blessing something that's already Blessed.

    However, while Bless and Chant and Prayer don't stack with themselves, they do stack with each other. And so it is with bard songs. Even now you can stack normal bard song (+3 Luck) with Skald song (+4 combat bonuses) and Enhanced song (other +4 combat bonuses). It's not bad.

    StummvonBordwehrgorgonzolaThacoBellChronicler
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 508
    I personally don't like the idea of a bard song being magic. I feel like it defeats the point of the bard if they don't actually inspire with their music, but just cast a magic enhancement, no different from any divine or arcane spell. They're supposed to be artists first and foremost, so their art should be legit.

    I'm waiting for somebody more versed in the source material to come and set it straight though. Even though I don't like the idea, it could very well be the case.

    Side note, does anybody know how multiple jester songs work in conjunction with eachother? Only the singer gets the jester song effect, and while the effect is active every enemy in the area must save vs spell or be confused once per round. Could multiple jesters force them to make a saving roll multiple times per round?

    ThacoBell
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    probably they don't stack as probably they are treated like other bard songs.
    i did not test it so i am not sure about.
    if you like the artistic side of bards i suggest you to try the mod npc keto, she has a personal quest that is related to that side of the class.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 2,780

    I personally don't like the idea of a bard song being magic. I feel like it defeats the point of the bard if they don't actually inspire with their music, but just cast a magic enhancement, no different from any divine or arcane spell. They're supposed to be artists first and foremost, so their art should be legit.

    I'm waiting for somebody more versed in the source material to come and set it straight though. Even though I don't like the idea, it could very well be the case.

    Side note, does anybody know how multiple jester songs work in conjunction with eachother? Only the singer gets the jester song effect, and while the effect is active every enemy in the area must save vs spell or be confused once per round. Could multiple jesters force them to make a saving roll multiple times per round?

    In 2nd edition the song isnt meant to be a magical thing, just a class ability based on historical bards , skalds , jesters...

    However, in 3rd,4th, 5th editions not all musicians can be bards, as their charisma based spells and abilities kind of mean that they learn the secrets of playing in a supernatural way, which could be defined in several ways (divine inspiration, magical heritage just like a sorcerer, supernatural ability to catch the magical intricacies behind musical inspiration...)

    In BG blades can sing too, so I roleplay that he is spinning his swords in such a performatic way that it inspires the party ;D

    ChroniclerThacoBellGotural
  • AurorusAurorus Member Posts: 194
    edited October 9
    I cannot speak to the HLA bard song in 2.5, but I am playing a Blade right now, and I am able with heavy micromanaging to keep his normal song active at 3 APR. More APR, however, results in either the loss of the song or attacks. It is quite a chore, however, and I only have the patience to do this level of micromanaging in the hardest battles. The range is also terrible, and the bonus only applies to those very close to the bard. Since, I normally disperse the group in hard battles to avoid AoE effects and group debuffs from Dispel Magic, the song is probably not worth the attention that it requires, even in the major battles. It was good enough, with heavy micromanaging, to get me through the SCS Wolf of Ulcaster battle, so I am happy enough for now.

    A non-Blade Bard's normal song, however, still has a large AoE. I do not know if the differing AoEs are intentional behavior or a bug in 2.5. It is a shame that Bard-song has been so badly nerfed. The Vanilla Bard and the Skald have lost much of their appeal, and Blade Bard is now a much weaker class than before. The Skald now requires constant, heavy micromanaging to be any more than a do-nothing Charname who just accompanies the NPCs singing. I was considering playing a Skald, instead of a Blade, and I am now very glad that I did not.

    This was a poorly considered change in the game design, in my opinion. Limiting any caster to 1 clone of any type, greying out the toolbar for clones (as in SCS), and having them disappear if they leave sight of the caster would have been much more appropriate nerfs, if the idea was game balance.

    gorgonzola
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,770
    edited October 13
    Aurorus said:

    A non-Blade Bard's normal song, however, still has a large AoE. I do not know if the differing AoEs are intentional behavior or a bug in 2.5. It is a shame that Bard-song has been so badly nerfed. The Vanilla Bard and the Skald have lost much of their appeal, and Blade Bard is now a much weaker class than before.

    I don't really understand the critique. Is the entire benefit of bard songs the ability to multply them with Mislead clones? Because that's pretty crappy game design. Wouldn't it be better to just give them a spell with simikar effects, that doesn't act and feel like an exploit?

    Anyway, I don't think anyone said "hm, we need to nerf bards" any more than the original devs said "we need to make a spell called Mislead solely for the benefit of stacking bard songs, and we need to balance bard songs around the assumption that they will only and ever be stacked via Mislead." When you make a repeat-every-round effect like bard songs, with opcode 321 followed by the substantive effects, a side-effect is that it doesn't stack. What that means for bard songs and illusionary clones is purely incidental.
    Aurorus said:

    This was a poorly considered change in the game design, in my opinion. Limiting any caster to 1 clone of any type, greying out the toolbar for clones (as in SCS), and having them disappear if they leave sight of the caster would have been much more appropriate nerfs, if the idea was game balance.

    I agree, but that kind of stuff is easier said than done. I'm not sure whether your suggestions are even possible. (Apart from greying out the item ability buttons, which is easy and totally sensible.) But anyway, as I said, game balance was not the idea behind the change, so any arguments about whether it was the right thing to do are kind of built on a faulty premise.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,122

    Yeah, I don't think a choir does sing in a more powerful way than a single person.

    If music was more moving the more voices it had then the radio would be filled with choir music. The biggest choirs would always top the sales charts. So on and so forth.

    Hmmm........Try listening to this and then say a choir doesn't enhance the passion or create unbelievably powerful emotion.

    Jeez, if I had a choir of bards singing this I wouldn't give a damn if these were my last minutes breathing. It would actually be worth it.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    Aurorus said:

    Limiting any caster to 1 clone of any type, greying out the toolbar for clones (as in SCS), and having them disappear if they leave sight of the caster would have been much more appropriate nerfs, if the idea was game balance.

    i totally disagree, if we are talking of vanilla game. such changes imo are good if done by mods, the original vanilla has its balance, that works, leaving open exploits, most of them completely optional, but it works pretty well. the longevity of the game is a proof of this. such drastic change in EE would completely alter the flavor and balance of the game. is up to the EE developers to decide for the future of the game, but the more it diverges from original the less i appreciate it. one thing is enhancing something, turning it into something different is not enhancing, is changing, thing that imo is better left to mods.

    UnderstandMouseMagic
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