Are +Attacks weapons automatically better?

panamakid

Some time ago I found Belm +2. I already had some other +3 weapon, so I didn't think it would be profitable to swap them. Then I've read that it's always better to use a +APR weapon if I have one. What would you say to a new player about it? To hook the topic to some details: now I use Celestial Fury as my right hand weapon. Is it better to use in the offhand another Katana +2 or something of similar level, or a newly found Short Sword with much weaker damage but +1 APR?

ThacoBell

+APR weapons are not automatically better, but if you dual wield, APR weapons are great in the offhand. The extra attack will apply to your more powerful mainhand weapon.

Gallenger

Ultimately, if you're shooting to play as optimal as possible, you'll end up having a few different items - because sooner or later you'll run into stuff that your items can't hurt, but maybe you have a +1 or +2 item you really like for "general purpose" murderin' and maybe a higher leveled item for special purpose murderin' in your pack.

As far as your specific question it comes down to whether or not you're proficient at all with Short Swords - yes, you'll get the extra attack on your mainhand weapon with a +apr weapon, but you'll very rarely hit with your offhand weapon (due to the thaco penalty for 0 proficiency)- which basically negates the extra attack you're getting from a DPS standpoint unless you've got something super sexy in your main hand (since the offhand weapon itself is an extra attack) that will out dps anything you could have in your off-hand.

tl;dr it's worth it so long as you have something *really* good in your mainhand or if you already have short sword proficiency HOWEVER you may want to keep a more powerful item handy in case you run into certain resistances or if you've put tons of pips/points into a specific weapon.

Aerakar

Belm would require scimitar proficiency. Kundane would require short swords. Both are +2 and provide +1 APR if main-handed or +1 APR to the main-hand weapon if they are off-handed.

panamakid

Case in point was Kundane, but I'm not proficient in short swords. I decided to use Equalizer in off hand. As Gallenger said, I have a different set, specifically for undead - the mace that kills them, simply (of Disruption?). I thought about Belm for Jaheira, also - but the damage is much lower than Blackblood.

Thanks for the replies!

joluv

Gallenger said:

As far as your specific question it comes down to whether or not you're proficient at all with Short Swords - yes, you'll get the extra attack on your mainhand weapon with a +apr weapon, but you'll very rarely hit with your offhand weapon (due to the thaco penalty for 0 proficiency)- which basically negates the extra attack you're getting from a DPS standpoint unless you've got something super sexy in your main hand (since the offhand weapon itself is an extra attack) that will out dps anything you could have in your off-hand.

I disagree with this. Let's compare.

- Celestial Fury and a Katana +2: X attacks with Celestial Fury, 1 attack with the Katana +2.
- Celestial Fury and Kundane: X+1 attacks with Celestial Fury, 1 attack with Kundane.

An attack with Celestial Fury is better than an attack with a Katana +2, so the second option is unambiguously better, even if every single attack with Kundane misses.

The Equalizer might be situationally worth equipping in the offhand, but only for its immunities. You're definitely going to do less damage that way. Similarly, unless you're fighting something with slashing resistance (or finishing off trolls), Jaheira will do significantly less damage with Blackblood than she would with Belm.

Gallenger

Yeah that's mainly what I was trying to get at - I was trying to talk in general terms so the new player could get an idea at when a +apr weapon would be a positive thing. Celestial fury is definitely powerful enough to justify the +apr weapon even you can't hit a rat with the +apr weapon itself.

But if you say have 4-5 pips in Katana, and you've got a +2 katana in your mainhand and a +1 katana in your off-hand, and find a +apr weapon, you'd be better off sticking with the +1 katana in the offhand imo.

As far as Belm goes vs Blackblood - you will definitely want to keep blackblood around because of the acid damage and the +3 enchantment, but belm would be better as an "all purpose murderin' weapon" with blackblood used as your special murderin' item lol.

ThacoBell

I never realized how much people dislike Equalizer. I always found it very useful.

joluv

Gallenger said:

But if you say have 4-5 pips in Katana, and you've got a +2 katana in your mainhand and a +1 katana in your off-hand, and find a +apr weapon, you'd be better off sticking with the +1 katana in the offhand imo.

Let's say you have 5 pips in katana and are above level 13. Then here are your two options:

a) 3 APR with Katana +2 and 1 APR with Katana +1
b) 4 APR with Katana +2 and 1 APR with Kundane

These are directly comparable, and the second option is better. There's no tradeoff.

Gallenger

With the pips situation you're going to draw a lot of attacks with your mainhand anyways and you're going to get your damage boost on your offhand so long as it's a katana - which is why I like to keep it around, yeah you're getting an extra attack with your mainhand weapon (with kundane) but it only does 1 additional damage relative to your offhand (which will also do less damage if you manage to hit).

FinneousPJ

@Gallenger It doesn't matter how many pips you have in katana or short swords, using kundane is always better.

Real

+attack bonuses only improves your thac0 (to hit accuracy) and often damage as well (but not ALWAYS, some +items only improve thac0 while improving damage only a little if at all). In addition, some mobs can only be hit by weapons of certain +attack quality. A rare demons that you may encounter, for example, needs a +5 weapon to hit. However, cases like this is extremely rare before ToB, and most mobs in SoA can be killed with +2/+3 weapon.

The discussion about belm/kundane in offhand is a fairly old but optimal method to play the game. Belm/Kundane are mediocre weapons by itself, but provides extra attack bonuses to your mainhand when they are wielded in your offhand.

Essentialy belm/kundane dualwield with a strong weapon like CelestialFury and throw in a few other bonuses from weapon specialization, fighter level bonuses and gauntlet/haste, then you have a character who can hit 4 times per round (6 seconds).

However, if you are not a fighter-like class (not barbarian/fighter/paladin etc), then dual-wielding may not be a great idea anyway, since your thac0 is pretty crap (exception for swashbucklers), and dual-wielding just adds to this penalty.

If you ARE a fighter-like class, then just keep in mind that in late game (or mid game if you are playing solo or with a tiny party), HLA skills like whirlwind will set your attacks to 10 for a round, meaning that the advantage of dual-wielding is no longer as prevalent anymore.

Some people may argue that improved haste+improved criticial still makes it stronger than simple whirlwind, but honestly, improved critical is pointless since you can't crit against most mobs you'd have trouble with in tob.

joluv

@Real: I think that by +Attacks, the OP meant additional attacks per round, not THAC0 bonuses.

Francois

I think Belm is mostly useful for classes like thieves who don't get multiple attack otherwise. Extra attacks can also be obtained by haste spells/potions. Dual wielding fighters get enough attacks per round and I find it more intersting to go for other kind of weapons. At some point you may get a warhammer that sets your Str to 25, or a flail that can stun ennemies, or a mace that makes you immune to level drain, etc. For a new player it's hard to pick proficiencies, because you don't know what kind of weapons you will find.

FinneousPJ

@Francois That's also good about the so called speed weapons: they don't require proficiency points to be effective.

sarevok57

thedamages said:

I never realized how much people dislike Equalizer. I always found it very useful.

back in the good ol' vanilla days, it was actually quite good, since a lot of enemies that you were fighting were chaotic evil, doing +6 instead of +3 damage was quite solid, but now it has been nerfed hugely, and all that cool extra damage isn't as killer as before

because now that extra damage, hits separately, so it doesn't get calculated into your critical hit

but I guess with that being said, even if you non critical it still does do 3 more damage to chaotic evil baddies as opposed to any other +3 weapons, but when I critical hit, I like seeing that 50+ number when I do, it just makes the feel goods feel so much better, unlike the equalizer, you will almost never see that 50+, it will usually be something like 38,6 instead

gorgonzola

Real said:

However, if you are not a fighter-like class (not barbarian/fighter/paladin etc), then dual-wielding may not be a great idea anyway, since your thac0 is pretty crap (exception for swashbucklers), and dual-wielding just adds to this penalty.

I agree, but with 3 other exceptions.
1- Blades can put 2 pips in DW.
2- Clerics can put only 1 pip in DW, but they can rise their STR with their divine spells, up to 25STR (bonus +7 thaco and +14 dmg) and this more then offset the penalty making them good dual welders.
3- There are situations when there is no attack roll and thaco becomes irrelevant like when the enemy is stunned or in a Time Stop. In those situations everybody can DW.

sarevok57

gorgonzola said:

Real said:

However, if you are not a fighter-like class (not barbarian/fighter/paladin etc), then dual-wielding may not be a great idea anyway, since your thac0 is pretty crap (exception for swashbucklers), and dual-wielding just adds to this penalty.

I agree, but with 3 other exceptions.
1- Blades can put 2 pips in DW.
2- Clerics can put only 1 pip in DW, but they can rise their STR with their divine spells, up to 25STR (bonus +7 thaco and +14 dmg) and this more then offset the penalty making them good dual welders.
3- There are situations when there is no attack roll and thaco becomes irrelevant like when the enemy is stunned or in a Time Stop. In those situations everybody can DW.

I thought blades could put 3 points into two weapon fighting

FinneousPJ

@sarevok57 I think you're right but the 3rd pip only affects off hand THAC0 and thus is much less meaningful

gorgonzola

@sarevok57 You are right, 3 points.
I confused it with the 2 pips that rangers get for free
In more then half of my runs I have a blade in the party, once I even had 2 of them in the party, Haer Dalis and Imoen (eekeepered), so I know quite well that kit, must have been a moment of blackout in my brain because I was really convinced when I wrote 2 instead of 3

sarevok57

gorgonzola said:

@sarevok57 You are right, 3 points.
I confused it with the 2 pips that rangers get for free
In more then half of my runs I have a blade in the party, once I even had 2 of them in the party, Haer Dalis and Imoen (eekeepered), so I know quite well that kit, must have been a moment of blackout in my brain because I was really convinced when I wrote 2 instead of 3

sometimes moments like that happen