Make other characters replace Minsc in Chateau Irenicus if your alignement is not good

_Connacht_

As the title says. Just like with familiars, which change according to CHARNAME's alignment.
So, if you create a good character, you will find Minsc in prison, but if you create a neutral or evil character, you will find other people. This would simulate a non-good party at the end of BG, which hardly would have preferred Dynaheir and Minsc to Edwin, for example.
Anyway, I think that the replacement should be a fighter as well, thus fulfilling the role for a tank in the early game for balancing reasons, and should NOT be inside other quests (that is, Edwin couldn't be put in the jail anyway if you don't want to mess up everything with Mae'Var).
Thus maybe i.e. Anomen and Korgan could be suitable candidates, although they were not part of the first game. They are fighters and they are recruitable just at the beginning of chapter 2, rather than while fulfilling a quest (in fact you go through their related quests after they join, not before). Only a few dialogue lines need to be changed in order to justify their encounter in the dungeon. Otherwise, the new characters of the EE might be suitable, Dorn can be an excellent tank for an evil party.
But everything could be modded in if one wants.
What do you think about?

filcat88

Well, what you say make sense, but the official story dictates that you must have Minsc and Dynaheir at the end of SOD. The latter gets killed in the transition between SOD and BG2.

Lord_Tansheron

An interesting notion for a mod, and perhaps a convenient option to transfer certain BG1/SoD NPCs to BG2 along with modded banter, romance, etc. packages. Would of course require some tinkering, but it would certainly smooth out some RP inconsistencies.

Tarlugn

Plus, if I remember right, there´s plenty of cages in the starting area of SoA. Though I´d prefer the npc´s originating from bg:ee, since most soa npc´s opening dialogue´s wouldn´t make a lot of sense being captive under experimentation.

Abi_Dalzim

I never understood why Irenicus felt like keeping Minsc and Jaheira alive anyways (and really, it's one of those things you're not meant to know about him), so why not someone else? I mean, that's basically how the multiplayer option works, they spring up in the extra cages.

Grum

Abi_Dalzim said:

I never understood why Irenicus felt like keeping Minsc and Jaheira alive anyways (and really, it's one of those things you're not meant to know about him), so why not someone else? I mean, that's basically how the multiplayer option works, they spring up in the extra cages.

My guess is so that they would join the shadow thief captives in the soul stealing spell.

dockaboomski

Why not just throw someone in one of the other cages, or in the back portal room? Then we still get Minsc and someone else nice (or what have you).

Tarlugn

The idea that´d be really cool if implemented would be that you´d start with the party you had in bg:ee/sod. Now that´d truly add into the feeling of an continuum, plus would add incentive for character development via stats ( +1 bonus tomes in bg:ee), profiencies, skill points for the thieves and general strategy, like spells to memorize and cast.

Of course, I´d leave out the characters that are already in place somewhere around Athkatla and such, but off the top of my head I recalled never seeing in SoA: Eldoth, Xan, Yeslick, Garrick, Alora, Skie, Shar-Teel, Branwen, Kagain. Did I miss someone?

jesterdesu

Tarlugn said:

Plus, if I remember right, there´s plenty of cages in the starting area of SoA.

Iirc this caters for multiplayer parties. Quite a nice touch really.

Kurona

My view on the subject is rather extreme in that it would have been better to have Charname simply captured alone and not reintroduce BG1 characters at all, leaving the player in a new place meeting new people. Château Irenicus being pretty much a glorified tutorial level it could also have been shorter, limiting the need to have a party to trudge through it. I understand they wanted to make it part of the narrative instead of the silly chores of Candlekeep, but the chores could be skipped easily.

Of course the biggest insult to continuity is Imoen. She was a last minute character in BG1, put there just because Xzar and Montaron could refuse to join depending on alignment/charisma, leaving the player to fend off gibberlings and wolves by their lonesome (not to mention Tarnesh!)
For people who dislike her (like me -- the only character I hate more is Neera) having BG2 promote her to main character and try to force you to care about her is significantly harder to swallow.

Eeeh, I drifted off topic a bit; my point was basically that switching Minsc and Jaheira for someone else wouldn't do much for continuity as long as you can't do the same for Imoen.

Vbibbi

Abi_Dalzim said:

I never understood why Irenicus felt like keeping Minsc and Jaheira alive anyways (and really, it's one of those things you're not meant to know about him), so why not someone else? I mean, that's basically how the multiplayer option works, they spring up in the extra cages.

True, especially since his cage was welded shut. So presumably Irenicus ordered the duergar to weld it shut for no discernible reason rather than outright killing him. If he wanted to use Minsc later for experiments, he made it very difficult to access him. And he would have no reason to want to sentence Minsc to a cruel death of starvation, it would serve no purpose.

Vbibbi

Kurona said:

My view on the subject is rather extreme in that it would have been better to have Charname simply captured alone and not reintroduce BG1 characters at all, leaving the player in a new place meeting new people. Château Irenicus being pretty much a glorified tutorial level it could also have been shorter, limiting the need to have a party to trudge through it. I understand they wanted to make it part of the narrative instead of the silly chores of Candlekeep, but the chores could be skipped easily.

Of course the biggest insult to continuity is Imoen. She was a last minute character in BG1, put there just because Xzar and Montaron could refuse to join depending on alignment/charisma, leaving the player to fend off gibberlings and wolves by their lonesome (not to mention Tarnesh!)
For people who dislike her (like me -- the only character I hate more is Neera) having BG2 promote her to main character and try to force you to care about her is significantly harder to swallow.

Eeeh, I drifted off topic a bit; my point was basically that switching Minsc and Jaheira for someone else wouldn't do much for continuity as long as you can't do the same for Imoen.

Yeah from a writer's perspective it does irk me a bit that a late addition character to BG1 included for gameplay purposes becomes such an important character to the plot in the sequel. And really, Imoen's presence limits roleplaying a bit; she is always Neutral Good and acts as if she and Charname are always friends, which takes some headcanon for an evil PC to work with. And for a Good PC trying to roleplay, it's tough not to always take her along since she left home to help us, and we'd be abandoning her to the wilderness if we leave her. So she usually finds her way into a Good party and limits the choices for other NPCs.

From a story perspective I think it would have made the most sense for Charname to have been in Irenicus' dungeon alone (ignoring the Imoen situation) as there was no reason for any of their companions to have been left alive either during the capture or during the months of captivity. We know that Khalid was used for dissection purposes, but Irenicus could have easily found any number of subjects who didn't have any combat or magic skills which would make them a risk.

I don't mind running into some old friends from up north in Athkatla but the threat of Irenicus and the dark start to the game would have been stronger if we had woken up with our friends from the previous game either gone or dead.

DJKajuru

Although your requests are valid, I believe it is quite a huge change for official sources to do it, but it shouldn't be so difficult for modders to simply remove minsc and jaheira by giving extra dialogue options in your first talk with imoen.

As for removing imoen and adding your old bg1 party, it would have to be quite complex mod to make it interesting. They would have to think about several things , such as :
just remove imoen from the story?
Place her somewhere else?
If she is removed, how to handle the change it would cause to the rest of the plot?
What about your old companions who didn't make it to bg2? Just kill them?

If I were a modder, I myself would simply add some journal entries about what happened to them, stuff such as "with his wife avenged, kivan decided that it was time to proceed on his own" , or "still without a sense of belonging to the surface viconia headed for beregost to ponder about her future".

UnderstandMouseMagic

BG2 would be a far better story if Imoen was removed completely. Or at least the nonsense about her being Bhaalspawn was dropped and she reverts t being just a NPC as she was in BG.

Here's a few ideas.

Captured on your own, escape because of shadow thief attack, reason to contact ST immediately.

Get clues about Irenicus throughout the game, like in BG where you find papers, first mentioning Tazok (Mulahay), then Tarnesh (bandit camp), then iron throne, then Saravok, (Cloakwood mine).
Much better story telling.

So, you get clues from
Shadow thieves

Cowled Wizards (they have him imprisoned, then he takes over the asylum, they comission you to help, )

Vampires, (obvious, they have been supplying bodies for experiments, no real need to have Bodhi as sister, also gets rid of the awkward "vampires have no souls as a matter of course, why on earth does she want one?". In fact you could write the better story that Bodhi was a vampire already and was attracted to Irenicus because he has no soul, established in Athkatla for hundreds of years so has the means to set Irenicus up with dungeon. Link her knowledge as a vampire to the Shadow temple quest is a possibility)

Firkrag, (build up the idea that Irenicus (or better, vampire Bodhi) has been in contact with him for some time, mutual interest in the Bhaalspawn, can give reason for Tazok turning up, Irenicus got hold of him after Sarevok defeat, gives reason for vampires in his dungeon)

Compelling reason for going after Irenicus is that he is still after you, that can be wovern into the game.

Without Imoen, the game regains the balance that is missing when you do virtually all quests pre spellhold, (leaving her to be tortured ect.).
And if you don't, you are then knocking around Amn souless but the game pretends that's no big deal?

Rather than a "rescue", pursuit/hunt doesn't leave the player feeling that they have "finished" something, so the game flows more naturally onto Sauhagin/underdark. The whole of chapter 2 is about rescueing Imoen, so you do that and "oh what now, soul is nicked, here we go again", very unbalanced.

Also, if Bodhi isn't sister, it could make sense that she flees to Athkatla with the lantern but as it is, she leaves just when her and her brother's moment of revenge is playing out?

Although I love BG2, after playing through so many times, I feel I do notice where the game was curtailed/altered to fit time/money restraints ect. rather than it feeling "organic".
BG never feels like that.

ThacoBell

I'm gonna have to disagree with this, Imoen's kidnapping provides the major crux of the story for me early on. Protecting a loved one (for me at least) provides more motivation than self interest. If charname was the only one hunted, it would make just as much sense to fall off the grid than to actively hunt an uner powerful wizard. But if you really don't like Imoen, I can see that being a sticking point. I have seen strong arguments for having her die at spellhold though.

_Connacht_

Guys, you are going outside the rail :O I never intended to remove Imoen or talk about the whole PLOT of BG2 and the pursue to Spellhold

I simply proposed a change: if CHARNAME is for example evil, replace Minsc with somebody you find early like Korgan or Dorn (or whoever you deem suitable) in the jail. Put two lines as an excuse for him ("I don't know why I was kidnapped, maybe my old companions sold me to this mage, so let's party together and get our vengeance") and bring Minsc to the Copper Coronet wandering because he lost Dynaheir in another tale.

O_Bruce

Considering what's happeing at the end of Siege of Dragonspear, the proposal here is utterly pointless.

Raduziel

It's not rocket science in my point of view:

Remove Minsc and Jaheira. Put them somewhere else.

For Imoen: after the first dialogue she opens your cage and says something like: "I'll think we'll have better odds if we spread up. Meet me in the nearest inn and we'll check out who this psycho is and what he wants. Good luck, brother/sister".

And she vanishes only to be found in the Chateau's final aisle, join the party, and be captived by Irenicus once you are out.

That way you can do the prologue alone and don't mess up with the plot.

-------------

I would put Minsc in Umar Hills. He did heard about the problems there and went to kick some baddies ass.

And Jaheira... hm... maybe she can found you in Docks District? "When the harpists told me they have found you I couldn't believe and needed to check this out myself!"

_Connacht_

Raduziel said:

For Imoen: after the first dialogue she opens your cage and says something like: "I'll think we'll have better odds if we spread up. Meet me in the nearest inn and we'll check out who this psycho is and what he wants. Good luck, brother/sister".

And she vanishes only to be found in the Chateau's final aisle, join the party, and be captived by Irenicus once you are out.

That way you can do the prologue alone and don't mess up with the plot.

Actually it is the player who can propose to divide paths. Then Imoen is found just outside the dungeon when you encounter Irenicus.
So one doesn't even need to worry about if one wants to solo the dungeon.

Raduziel said:

I would put Minsc in Umar Hills. He did heard about the problems there and went to kick some baddies ass.

No, it would be too far, the exchange is with somebody CHARNAME can meet early. So I put in the jail, for example, Korgan, because he is a tank too and can be easily recruited just at the beginning of chapter 2, the same for Anomen, but they are just examples.
So, it suits better to meet Minsc at the Copper Coronet, blaming himself because he couldn't defend Dynaheir from some cloacked mysterious assaulters, whining because he's now dishonored, being mocked by any passerby in the tavern. It's up to the player to decide if recruit him and pulling him out of all the scum of the copper coronet, or leaving him alone.

Raduziel said:

And Jaheira... hm... maybe she can found you in Docks District? "When the harpists told me they have found you I couldn't believe and needed to check this out myself!"

Perhaps this sounds good as long as you can meet her early, but her motivation should be changed. My proposal was to simulate a non-good party at the end of Baldur's Gate. So, let's assume that you disbanded Jaheira because you are chaotic evil and preferred Edwin and Viconia to anybody else, why should she worry for you and hurry to meet you after hearing voices of your survival? This is something that one would expect from a true companion, but then, Jaheira would have been captured with you.
Thus, it would be better something like the Harpers sent her to investigate after hearing voices of night guild wars in the streets, people disappearing, a mysterious mage wrecking havoc with shadow thieves in the promenade and CHARNAME suddenly coming out from that chaos.