Quick questions about Kensai/Thief

Arzakon_1714

Hi everyone.

I've recently made a Kensai/Thief from BGEE to BG2EE, up to Kensai 13/Thief 39 (almost finished Watcher's Keep). There are a few questions concerning this character I'd like to ask (I've always played wizards).

1 - THAC0: It is my understanding that the Thief's THAC0 should be half his level; therefore, a level 39 thief should have thac0 1, rounded down. Yet my character has a THAC0 of 8, which is pretty bad. Is this supposed to be normal? Is there anything I'm missing? My inquisitor can hit with -14 while my Kensai-thief has a -5/-2 currently, which is pretty bad in comparison.

2 - Backstab: One of the strong points of a Kensai/Thief is the backstab ability. You miss other fighter's HLA to get Assassination, which can be awesome. Problem is, most powerful NPCs and monsters are immune to backstab. Is it really worthy to lose Greater Whirlwind uses to get a single Assassination use which can be completely avoided by most enemies in ToB? Is there any way to circumvent this?

3 - Killing wizards: Using Create Scroll I usually carry a couple of dispel scrolls to fight mages. The inquisitor is pretty good doing the job, but the Kensai/Thief can become pretty useless when facing a good wizard with good defenses against magical weapons and so on. Dispel via scroll is weak, and there are only a few scrolls to pierce magic defenses which cannot be created (limited supply). Aside from being extra fast and dealing a single killing blow backstabbing a wizard before being able to even put up his defenses, is there any way to deal with magically protected wizards?

Thanks in advance.

Kurona

1. Base Thac0 maxes out a level 20, which is 10 for rogue classes. Yours is 8 because Fighter level 13. In short, your Thief levels never improved your Thac0 at all.

2. Backstab is very strong in BG1 and most of SoA but lose considerable effectiveness in ToB, because most, if not all, dangerous enemies are immune.

3. Scrolls are cast at level 10 so Dispel/Remove Magic will not be very useful. You need to stock up on scrolls of Breach, Pierce Magic and so on. Wands of Spell Striking can help you as well. Unfortunately you can't create any of this, you must rely on loot and shops so use them sparingly.

joluv

I'll add that you can find THAC0 information in the progression tables at the end of the Adventurer's Guide, and you can always recharge a wand by selling it to a merchant and buying it back. Also, use Spike Traps.

smeagolheart

So is there a more optimal, thaco wise dual classing point for dual class fighter thieves than 13? Another level that makes a significant difference?

Jaheiras_Witness

No, level 13 is best. Once you factor in STR, kensai bonuses, weapon bonuses, equipment bonuses and buffs, you should never have a THAC0 issue (your real THAC0 is likely to be around -10).

A kensai-thief doesn't need dispel scrolls nor, as you have noticed, are they any good. You just need to wait out PfMW and then hit them with arrow of dispelling, Carsomyr or Staff of Magi. Said mage will then be as helpless as a newborn baby.

Lord_Tansheron

I've never found THAC0 to be much of a problem even dualing at 9. Yes holding out longer will make for a better THAC0, but in my opinion the gain is not worth the tremendous delay dualing/regaining.

As always, personal choice though.

Grond0

If you are finding it hard to hit then potions can help. A few whacks with the Answerer long sword will also make the strongest enemy vulnerable.

gorgonzola

Arzakon_1714 said:

Hi everyone.

You miss other fighter's HLA to get Assassination, which can be awesome. Problem is, most powerful NPCs and monsters are immune to backstab. Is it really worthy to lose Greater Whirlwind uses to get a single Assassination use which can be completely avoided by most enemies in ToB? Is there any way to circumvent this?

Going to the pain of dualing a fighter in an other class and having a down time you retain some advantages of the fighter ( Kit, GM, many HP, good thaco and apr), and you can develop the second class to a very high level. But you'll never have the end game thaco and HLAs of a single class fighter. You can also be a multi, no down time but slower leveling, thaco cap at 0 and both the HLA pools, but you loose kit, GM and some HP. You have to choose....

And you have made your choice, that is a good one, even if I would have chosen in a different way. The kensai thief is a strong class.
But a thief is not only backstabbing and assassination, that in SoA are very strong and in ToB, even if are useful in many situations don't work against bosses.
You have UAI, that maybe is the strongest HLA (the other candidate is mage's IA), traps and other useful HLAs that can help you to stay alive.

The question " Is it really worthy to lose Greater Whirlwind uses to get a single Assassination?" imo is not a good question. It should be reworded as " Is it really worthy to lose Greater Whirlwind and the other fighter HLA to get rogue HLA?". And my answer is yes, is worthy.
Maybe you could have both playing a multi, but this a different thing..... (I feel evil in telling this ).

FinnTheHuman

2. For endgame, a single whirlwind vs. a single assassination? That's tuff, but I'd say probably whirlwind is better. Just because people that assassination works on can be taken down with whirlwind anyway, but whirlwind will also be helpful in the other situations too.

I think the real comparison would be whirlwind's vs spike trap and or time trap. Spike trap is extremely powerful, and time trap is powerful too, especially with a fighter type build as every strike is guaranteed hit when time is stopped. Also, multiple time traps are available, allowing multiple time stops in a row. Some enemies are immune to time stop so use a spike trap in those situations.

Give this playthrough a read for many fun ideas. Its a mage/thief, but given UAI a lot of the techniques will still be available, given scrolls.

ameliaboggins

`wizard with good defenses against magical weapons and so on. `

its rare that casters defenses are vs normal AND magical weapons.....ergo sum, carry some normal weapons on you!

gorgonzola

A single whirlwind vs. a single assassination? A single Hardness can make the difference, the other 2 only make you win faster a battle that you'll win anyway.

Its rare that casters defenses are vs normal AND magical weapons, unless they are liches, rakshasas and vampires.