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Class and Racial Restrictions that make sense.

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  • JumboWheat01JumboWheat01 Member Posts: 1,028
    This thread is turning into an edition war, and a lot of bickering and insulting. Perhaps it's time to move one with our business, or take the insulting to more personal forms of chat.
  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 253
    edited August 2016
    Anyone up for insulting by carrier pidgin? My cats would gladly accept any insults, but I fear the carrier pidgin guild does not approve of them.
  • ThelsThels Member Posts: 1,416
    PK2748 said:

    1. Roll a die
    2. Add your bonuses
    3. Report results to the DM
    4. The DM tells you if you hit
    5. You do the incredibly simple math in your head to figure out the creatures AC in any system

    You're missing a step between 2 and 3, unless you assume that the DM knows the THAC0 of all players. I'm not saying it's hard to figure out THAC0, but I AM saying that it's a more complex system than BaB.

    If you're really reluctant to agree that THAC0 is a more confusing system than BaB, then you're just being stubborn.

    Again, I'm not flaming on 2nd edition. I've enjoyed the system for years. But it has it's downsides, especially towards the needless complexity with some of it's rules, as well as oddities with some of it's other rules.
  • PK2748PK2748 Member Posts: 381
    I don't think THAC0 is worse than BAB, mostly because while BAB is simpler it exists specifically to support what I consider an awful multi class system. Figuring out your THAC0 is simple. It's a linear chart. Figuring out your BAB is based on calculations of how many levels of what class. Your DM knowing your THAC0 isn't a huge expectation but your DM knowing everyone's BAB is a much less likely arrangement after a certain point
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    edited August 2016
    I think that race/class restrictions are entirely by setting.

    If Mystra, goddess of magic, says Dwarves can't use magic then so be it. If every single paladin order in the whole world says no halflings, so be it.

    For my own personal setting where I DM? No race/class restrictions.

    Edit: Basically settings should have race/class restrictions, generic rules should not.

    Edit the second: In the 5e DM's guide there's actually suggestions on how to handle race/class restrictions if you want to use them and gives examples like maybe different races use different arcane magic. All elves are bards (with wood elves being valor bards and all high elves being lore bards) or all dragonborn having sorcerers, all human arcane users are wizards, etc. Just suggestions on how to flavor the world using race/class restrictions.
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  • ThelsThels Member Posts: 1,416
    Yeah, ok, time to stop taking some people seriously here...
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @PK2748 People who think themselves smart or good at math because they "get" THAC0 have no clue. No, THAC0 is not difficult. Yes, most people think working with non negative numbers is more intuitive. Hence, BAB is more intuitive.
  • GloatingSwineGloatingSwine Member Posts: 18
    edited August 2016
    BAB isn't just more intuitive because it uses consistent positive numbers (though that certainly helps), but because the properties of the character and target are more consistent.

    Under THAC0 you roll a dice, modify what you rolled by a property of the target (their AC) and compare it to a property of your character (your THAC0) to see whether you hit or not.

    Under BAB you roll a dice, modify it by properties of your character (your BAB) and compare it to a property of the target (their AC) to see if you hit or not.

    With BAB properties of your character more consistently apply to your character and properties of the target more consistently apply to the target.



    Anyway, race restrictions were a thing in 2E because 2E D&D has opinions about what kind of fantasy you are engaging in, if you're using elves and dwarves you're using them roughly the way the designers imagined them.
  • PK2748PK2748 Member Posts: 381

    @PK2748 People who think themselves smart or good at math because they "get" THAC0 have no clue. No, THAC0 is not difficult. Yes, most people think working with non negative numbers is more intuitive. Hence, BAB is more intuitive.

    Actually how is working with positive integers more or less intuitive? Subtraction and addition are equally "intuitive" and a negative number in this context is just subtraction. Intuitive and simple are not synonymous.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @PK2748

    "Notoriously difficult for pupils to understand, I think addition and subtraction of negatives is one of the things that one comes to understand after doing lots of practice."

    http://mrreddy.com/blog/2014/07/how-we-teach-addition-subtraction-of-negative-numbers/

    "The most difficult aspect is to subtract a negative number."

    http://www.education.vic.gov.au/school/teachers/teachingresources/discipline/maths/continuum/Pages/negnum45.aspx

    People need cheat sheets to do these operations

    http://math.about.com/od/prealgebra/ht/PostiveNeg.htm

    People need 'how to's to do these operations

    http://www.wikihow.com/Add-and-Subtract-Negatives
  • GloatingSwineGloatingSwine Member Posts: 18
    PK2748 said:

    @PK2748 People who think themselves smart or good at math because they "get" THAC0 have no clue. No, THAC0 is not difficult. Yes, most people think working with non negative numbers is more intuitive. Hence, BAB is more intuitive.

    Actually how is working with positive integers more or less intuitive? Subtraction and addition are equally "intuitive" and a negative number in this context is just subtraction. Intuitive and simple are not synonymous.
    The intuitive thing about the numbers isn't necessarily working with positive numbers, but that in newer editions bigger numbers are consistently better, whereas sometimes in older edtions smaller numbers were better and sometimes bigger numbers were better and sometimes negative numbers were better. You want a big strength which makes your THAC0 better, but a big THAC0 is bad because the big strength made it smaller.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2016
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    Post edited by [Deleted User] on
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