Rogue Rebalancing Mod

cbarchuk

I already know that this is a well made mod. I just wanted to get some feedback from anyone who has used this mod extensively and can tell me what they thought about the class kit changes compared to vanilla. The swashbuckler for example looks to be more powerful than it's vanilla counterpart.

smeagolheart

I didn't care for the changes to the bounty hunter, assassin changes seemed fine. I tried the bard seemed ok but I didn't like the hla changes.

Aerakar

I played a few bounty hunter runs with the RR changes and I personally liked them. I also liked the assassin changes. Both kits were somewhat weaker IMO versus vanilla 1.3 versions, but RR adds a lot of flavor and makes changes which make sense to me, e.g. assassin backstab earlier, poison starts low and slowly improves, alchemical traps for bounty hunters, etc. The BH loss of the maze trap is a big power reduction though, and no throwing traps in SoA/ToB.

Since SoD and 2.0 I am not using the kit class changes, as I am now trying the new (weakened) 2.0 poison ability and vanilla bounty hunter traps (I have only played the BH with RR so have never used a maze trap...yet!). I do add the items though as I think they are great. I also still use TWF for all thieves as I find it logical and not unbalanced.

I have read a lot about the bard class and HLA changes being well-liked by others, but I have not played a bard in EE so cannot comment. I have not played as a swashbuckler ever (a thief without backstab??!!), so no comment on that one either.

ThacoBell

I did enjoy the bard tweaks (particularly Blades getting free pips in two weapon style)

cbarchuk

Aerakar said:

I played a few bounty hunter runs with the RR changes and I personally liked them. I also liked the assassin changes. Both kits were somewhat weaker IMO versus vanilla 1.3 versions, but RR adds a lot of flavor and makes changes which make sense to me, e.g. assassin backstab earlier, poison starts low and slowly improves, alchemical traps for bounty hunters, etc. The BH loss of the maze trap is a big power reduction though, and no throwing traps in SoA/ToB.

Since SoD and 2.0 I am not using the kit class changes, as I am now trying the new (weakened) 2.0 poison ability and vanilla bounty hunter traps (I have only played the BH with RR so have never used a maze trap...yet!). I do add the items though as I think they are great. I also still use TWF for all thieves as I find it logical and not unbalanced.

I have read a lot about the bard class and HLA changes being well-liked by others, but I have not played a bard in EE so cannot comment. I have not played as a swashbuckler ever (a thief without backstab??!!), so no comment on that one either.

I noticed with the assassin that he loses the +1 to hit and damage. This normally wouldn't seem like such a big deal I guess but since the assassin has such poor THACO to begin with...mmm...I dunno. Poison Weapon is actually weaker than vanilla 2.0 though not by much. Better backstab progression is definitely nice. How did death attack work for you especially later in the game? Also what did think of the new HLA's?

[Deleted User]

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Aerakar

@cbarchuk well, I only now am using the +1 to hit/damage for my current elf run and it is nice to have, especially with short bows and sword. I think of this as a trade-off with the +1 backstab modifier from level 1. The death attack was ok, but of course enemies save often at higher levels, but not always. I did not use it much frankly, but it is a nice flavorful extra.

I liked the HLA changes. I agree with @subtledoctor on this mod making things seem more 'honest', which I take as logical. Of the HLA changes, really the bounty hunter is the one that get's nerfed, not the assassin IMO.

Kurona

RR is modular but more or less balanced around the assumption every component will be installed. In which case rogues are more powerful than in vanilla, despite the kit abilities being seemingly weaker. Lemme explain:

- Rogues can put three pips in Two-Weapon Style. Doesn't do much for Swashbucklers and Blades (though Blades get the pips for free) but all around it makes all rogues more effective in combat because they can gain +1 APR (or more with speed weapons) without their Thac0 suffering.
- The revised Alchemy HLA might seem inconsequential at first glance but in practice it's a very cheap store with unlimited potions. Such as a rogue-only potion to raise STR to 21 for 2 hours.
- The revised Scribe Scrolls HLA for Bards allow them to put their memorized spells onto a scroll. High level spells are very expensive to scribe but low/mid level ones are cheap as hell, and Thieves can also use them with UAI. Not to mention, RR Bards can cast spells up to level 8 and by the time HLAs roll around you can pretty much get unlimited money.
- Bards gain Lingering Song as a HLA, meaning they can do something useful while their song effects persist for a while. Skalds and Jesters particularly benefit from this since they get a special Enhanced Bard Song too!

All around rogues are less exploitative (especially with epic traps, though they're still very powerful) but stronger in a straight fight and much much stronger with preparation (scrolls and potions).

Because of this I wouldn't recommend to only install the kit changes because it's the part with the nerfs.

cbarchuk

Thank you so much for the incredible insight. That really helps.

Raduziel

One of the best mods ever. Specially the items.

Go for it, you can never miss.

cbarchuk

Well I had a solo assassin playthrough going and I installed RR. So far I do like it. It feels different because before I mainly used ranged weapons except when backstabbing. Now I'm dual wielding and rocking 4 APR when using oil of speed. Death Attack has been actually really cool. I like how you don't need to be behind the target or even in stealth. I've mainly used it on mages but it seems quite powerful. I wonder how it will work on dragons or bosses. I also think the new HLAs are very flavorful as well. We'll see how the rest of the game goes.

cbarchuk

Aerakar said:

@cbarchuk well, I only now am using the +1 to hit/damage for my current elf run and it is nice to have, especially with short bows and sword. I think of this as a trade-off with the +1 backstab modifier from level 1. The death attack was ok, but of course enemies save often at higher levels, but not always. I did not use it much frankly, but it is a nice flavorful extra.

I liked the HLA changes. I agree with @subtledoctor on this mod making things seem more 'honest', which I take as logical. Of the HLA changes, really the bounty hunter is the one that get's nerfed, not the assassin IMO.

Quick update on my solo assassin run. Death Attack alone allowed my assassin to solo the 3rd level of Watcher's Keep. Now I did do a few reloads until specific enemies failed their save. Not too many though. But really it was crucial otherwise I can't really see how it would be possible. I'm mainly talking about those large demon battles. I also used a bit of cheese where I would death attack an enemy, run through the portal, repeat. At this point my assassin is level 35. So a bit of cheese but very powerful ability. Also I'm finding that this version of the assassin is more of a dual wielding melee combatant as opposed to the vanilla version which is primarily ranged except when backstabbing. I haven't really used ranged attacks barely at all.

Aerakar

If I recall correctly, there is an ongoing saving throw reduction for enemies for both the death attack and the poison with RR, something like -1 every 8 levels, so -4 at level 35. If I understand this correctly, that would be a 20% chance of failing the save, not even counting the victim's usual saving throws.

I really think RR gets the backstab progression right more than vanilla. Now I am wondering if death attack is the same. It seems to really expand the assassin repertoire.

cbarchuk

Aerakar said:

If I recall correctly, there is an ongoing saving throw reduction for enemies for both the death attack and the poison with RR, something like -1 every 8 levels, so -4 at level 35. If I understand this correctly, that would be a 20% chance of failing the save, not even counting the victim's usual saving throws.

I really think RR gets the backstab progression right more than vanilla. Now I am wondering if death attack is the same. It seems to really expand the assassin repertoire.

Yes death attack imposes a -3 to the enemy saving throw at level 40. I think it's great and again it allowed my assassin to solo level 3 of Watchers Keep which quite tough as you know especially with a single class thief. And you're right, even poison weapon is stronger with RR due to poison expertise. At level 40 the enemy gets a -5 to their save. I haven't any trouble poison enemies compared to vanilla. Now I was unable to death attack Saladrex. Even though he failed his save, he didn't die. So he must have some kind of script where's he's immune to instant death attacks. But I was able to beat him by standing up on the stairs and poisoning him to death. I had to use a lot of arrows because his AC is so high but it did work. So I think RR really got the assassin right and I agree about the backstab progression. I also really like being able to dual wield. Not having to rely completely on ranged attacks is very nice. Though THACO of course is still pretty bad I guess though items help out. I'll shoot you more updates on my solo run if you're interested. I'm still only in chapter 2 and I'm already level 40...lol.

Aerakar

Would love to hear more updates @cbarchuk . You are tempting me to restart another assassin run to try and use the RR death attack more often!

cbarchuk

Aerakar said:

Would love to hear more updates @cbarchuk . You are tempting me to restart another assassin run to try and use the RR death attack more often!

Well I actually have several solo playthroughs going on at once. As a fellow thief fan I wanted to compare and contrast various builds using RR. So I have my solo Assassin, a Halfing Fighter/Thief, A Dwarven Fighter/Thief, a Human Swashbuckler, and an Elf Stalker (Not a thief but close enough ) Now all these are not just test playthroughs but are role playing concepts. For example I have both my fighter/thieves using single weapon style instead of dual wielding with my Halfling using a sling and my Dwarf using a crossbow. My Halfling Fighter/Thief isn't far behind my assassin. He recently finished the 3rd level of Watcher's Keep as well relying on potions of speed and his +5 sling. I'm really trying to keep the cheesiness to a minimum and not use strategies that, to me, seem outside of the traditional archetype of a thief/assassin type character. So I'm definitely testing new weapons and strategies for playing these classes along with role playing at the same time. It's been a lot of fun and constantly switching characters keeps things fresh.

Aerakar

I like the ranged weapon focuses for your F/T characters, i.e. Dwarf with crossbow, Halfling with sling.

What melee weapons are you using for the F/Ts? RR adds that wonderful revised SSoB in both BGEE and BGEE2, as I am sure you know, as well as a smattering of interesting daggers in SoA.

I really dig the RR bucklers also and use them often, especially Safeguard. It works well with thrown weapons, but also in melee with the added AC and the +1 to hit and damage from Bless. A Halfling assassin using darts (like the RR returning frost dart or actually any) and the Safeguard buckler can really keep up the damage.

Raduziel

Can someone give the link for the latest version?

Windows, BGEE/BG2EE 2.3

Thanks!

@AlexT I've download v4.8, but couldn't find a .exe installer.

http://www.shsforums.net/files/file/952-rogue-rebalancing-mod-platform-independent/

Is this the right one?

cbarchuk

Aerakar said:

I like the ranged weapon focuses for your F/T characters, i.e. Dwarf with crossbow, Halfling with sling.

What melee weapons are you using for the F/Ts? RR adds that wonderful revised SSoB in both BGEE and BGEE2, as I am sure you know, as well as a smattering of interesting daggers in SoA.

I really dig the RR bucklers also and use them often, especially Safeguard. It works well with thrown weapons, but also in melee with the added AC and the +1 to hit and damage from Bless. A Halfling assassin using darts (like the RR returning frost dart or actually any) and the Safeguard buckler can really keep up the damage.

Hey bud. Honestly, from a role playing perspective, I like single wielding along with a ranged weapon more for an assassin/thief type of a character. So dual wielding has really changed the feel of my assassin more which I'm not sure if I like. I realize from a mechanics stand point dual wielding gives more APR which is badly needed for a thief. But my assassin feels more like a fighter than a sneaky assassin. I mean using ranged weapons and only getting close for a backstab makes more sense to me thematically. But I'm trying it out for now. I'll probably switch it back here soon.
Weapon-wise all my thieves are using the new SSoB which is glorious among other daggers and clubs. No staves. I understand they're fantastic but, to me, they make no sense...lol. I'm also using a lot of the RR bucklers as well and they are fantastic. I have not tried to Safeguard buckler however so I will have to try it out. Thanks for the tip.

Aerakar

I changed the color of the Safeguard using NI. The glowing blue I could not take, so I made it steel grey. What is great about it is that the wielder is under a permanent Bless spell. The Sanctuary ability once per day is also so useful.

I also think of Assassins as more of sneaky ranged characters, even with the RR TWFx3.

On QSs, yes I hear you. Thematically they are a stretch. But I was won over to the dark side after I tested and discovered how much more consistently they deal out higher damage on backstabs, even in BG1 with the QS +3 and then later with the +4 QS in SoA. I would not use them on a smaller shorty because it looks funky with their sprites, e.g. Halfling, Gnome, so I do still draw the thematic line there, but I am using them these days with my Dwarven and Elven thieves. They are just mechanically so superior to anything else except the RR SSoB, which I tend to use with a buckler anyway until I get 2 TWF pips. I do try to justify the QS, e.g. I imagine my thieves using the QS as utility poles, twirling them in combat, parrying blows, etc. I believe Nori used something like one in the Hobbit movies and he seemed thiefly. I am a role-player with power gamer tendencies it seems...

Aerakar

@Raduziel 4.8 is the last version I can find (updated in January 2015 I believe). I downloaded for Windows in July and there was an installer.

Raduziel

@Aerakar The one I've downloaded only had the rr folder. Can you post the link you used?

Thanks!

Aerakar

Raduziel said:

@Aerakar The one I've downloaded only had the rr folder. Can you post the link you used?

Thanks!

Did you try the broken windows link from the same page (not the independent platform link)? I just downloaded that and seemed to work. It does not seem broken any longer.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

cbarchuk

Aerakar said:

I changed the color of the Safeguard using NI. The glowing blue I could not take, so I made it steel grey. What is great about it is that the wielder is under a permanent Bless spell. The Sanctuary ability once per day is also so useful.

I also think of Assassins as more of sneaky ranged characters, even with the RR TWFx3.

On QSs, yes I hear you. Thematically they are a stretch. But I was won over to the dark side after I tested and discovered how much more consistently they deal out higher damage on backstabs, even in BG1 with the QS +3 and then later with the +4 QS in SoA. I would not use them on a smaller shorty because it looks funky with their sprites, e.g. Halfling, Gnome, so I do still draw the thematic line there, but I am using them these days with my Dwarven and Elven thieves. They are just mechanically so superior to anything else except the RR SSoB, which I tend to use with a buckler anyway until I get 2 TWF pips. I do try to justify the QS, e.g. I imagine my thieves using the QS as utility poles, twirling them in combat, parrying blows, etc. I believe Nori used something like one in the Hobbit movies and he seemed thiefly. I am a role-player with power gamer tendencies it seems...

Role-player with power gamer tendencies. That is definitely me. What's funny is I've never played any class other than a thief class for BG1, 2, ToB, and SoD. Maybe I need a change after these runs...lol. Okay my assassin completed the 5th level of Watcher's Keep. Again death attack along with the standard use of traps made this level relatively easy. I used death attack to kill the green dragon and several of the combatants in the final fight which is quite tough as you know. My Halfling fighter/thief is on level 5 now and had a harder time fighting the green dragon. I haven't been picking any special traps for this character preferring to take more fighter HLAs. This is simply a roleplaying decision. At any rate, straight up fighting the green dragon was a tougher for sure as opposed to just walking straight up to and killing it with a death attack...lol. Getting ready to start the final fight. I'll let you know how it goes...

Aerakar

You have inspired me and I have given in and started a Halfling Assassin run to go along with the current Elven one I am doing. I plan to more role-play the Halfling's weaponry choices and stick to short swords, darts, shortbows, SWS and no quarterstaffs this time.

I will also take advantage of TWF x3 using RR, but not until SoA level-ups at 12, 16 and 20. I am not going to use the RR kit changes, as I am ok with the current 2.0 poison and the always useful +1THACO/damage is more appealing to me than Death Attack, since the +1 is for the entire run and not just later in the saga. I will miss the earlier backstab modifier though, for sure.

Good luck with finishing WK!

cbarchuk

Aerakar said:

You have inspired me and I have given in and started a Halfling Assassin run to go along with the current Elven one I am doing. I plan to more role-play the Halfling's weaponry choices and stick to short swords, darts, shortbows, SWS and no quarterstaffs this time.

I will also take advantage of TWF x3 using RR, but not until SoA level-ups at 12, 16 and 20. I am not going to use the RR kit changes, as I am ok with the current 2.0 poison and the always useful +1THACO/damage is more appealing to me than Death Attack, since the +1 is for the entire run and not just later in the saga. I will miss the earlier backstab modifier though, for sure.

Good luck with finishing WK!

Sweet and definitely post some updates on how things are going. We can compared strategies using the class as well as vanilla vs RR. We may need to start a separate post...lol. Vanilla poison weapon vs RR poison weapon seems about even to me. Vanilla is does slightly more damage giving enemies a -3 to their save at higher levels while RR does less damage but can give enemies a -5 to their save. I think I have that right. It will be interesting to hear your thoughts Aerakar. I look forward to it. I know your avid thief player as well. But I tell ya death attack is pretty sweet. I really like it. It's what I used to kill the Aurumach Rilmani mage(who was fully buffed), the Hive Mother Beholder, and the Huntress Archer in those final battles. Quite powerful. Outside of that, traps did a great job as always. Though I believe vanilla traps are more powerful I think. Not sure though. Anyways good luck bud, keep me updated on how it goes.

booinyoureyes

Great mod but the encounter is hilariously impossible

Aerakar

Has anyone ever used that assassin's short sword? It seems sweet with the poison. I recall only taking down that party once many years ago.

Neverused

I think someone recently managed to beat it in the no-reload thread, and I think semiticgod beat it after reloading two or three times to figure out their capabilities? It’s definitely up there with incredibly difficult, relatively fair fights though.