Weapon proficiency
rattenfleisch
Member Posts: 6
Are you sure it is a good idea to use the BG2 proficiency system? Considering the available weapons in the first game, it would lead to many problems.
First of all, many proficiencies would be redundant. Clubs for example - there is not a single magic club to be found in BG1. Two magic spears are in the game, one is cursed, the other one crap. And as long as you don't use tons of cheese to kill Drizzt and steal his scimitars, there is only one magic scimitar in the game (somewhere on the remote edge of a completely optional dungeon), which means you are out of luck if you want to play someone dual wielding scimitars. And I don't need to remind you that there are no katanas in BG1, either.
Another small problem is the inconsistent usefulness of some weapon categories - long bows would be a suitable proficiency in BG1, but not very useful in BG2 (you probably need more enchanted arrows than there are in the game to fight against all enemies), while some short bows come with their own implemented magic arrow, for example Tansheron's Bow and the Bow of Gesen.
This is only a small problem however, and rather a problem of BG2 than of BG1.
Assigning weapon proficiencies to NPCs would be difficult as well. Looking at the weapons they start with, Khalid uses long swords, Ajantis bastard swords and Minsc two handed swords. What if the player character chooses one of these categories? There aren't enough good weapons for everyone.
Let's take two handed swords for example: there are only two +1 specimen, one of them in the middle of nowhere (and unlikely to be found by players who don't scan each area in the game completely), the other one in Durlag's Tower (and therefore quite unattainable by low level characters).
So when you stumble across Spiderbane +2, one character can wield it while the other one continues to shatter one non-magical two hander after another.
The proficiency system of BG2 wasn't designed to suit the scarcity of BG1's weapon supply, but the abundance of BG2. Just look at how many exceptional long swords are easily attainable early in BG2. Blade of Roses, Adjatha the Drinker, Daystar, Namarra, Sword of Balduran, Flametongue, Ras... those are more than the exceptional long swords, bastard swords and scimitars of BG1 combined!
On top of that, BG1 does not only have fewer weapons, the characters are also lower in level, which means they have less proficiency points, making things even worse in comparison to BG2.
Considering the fact that BG1 is the introduction (ideally, new players play BG1 first), it makes sense to help new players finding "their" weapon by using the old proficiency system.
For us veterans, this isn't a problem of course - usually we even distribute our proficiency points according to what we know we find later. But let's think about those who don't know the game in and out...
Example: I just recently introduced my girlfriend into the game. She was able to make an acceptable weapon choice on her own in vanilla BG1 - going wrong is practically impossible. Letting her choose the proficiencies in BGtutu or BGT would have probably led to frustration.
Well, of course it is possible to just add craploads of different weapons throughout the game, but doing so and staying true to the original Baldurs Gate is well-nigh impossible.
First of all, many proficiencies would be redundant. Clubs for example - there is not a single magic club to be found in BG1. Two magic spears are in the game, one is cursed, the other one crap. And as long as you don't use tons of cheese to kill Drizzt and steal his scimitars, there is only one magic scimitar in the game (somewhere on the remote edge of a completely optional dungeon), which means you are out of luck if you want to play someone dual wielding scimitars. And I don't need to remind you that there are no katanas in BG1, either.
Another small problem is the inconsistent usefulness of some weapon categories - long bows would be a suitable proficiency in BG1, but not very useful in BG2 (you probably need more enchanted arrows than there are in the game to fight against all enemies), while some short bows come with their own implemented magic arrow, for example Tansheron's Bow and the Bow of Gesen.
This is only a small problem however, and rather a problem of BG2 than of BG1.
Assigning weapon proficiencies to NPCs would be difficult as well. Looking at the weapons they start with, Khalid uses long swords, Ajantis bastard swords and Minsc two handed swords. What if the player character chooses one of these categories? There aren't enough good weapons for everyone.
Let's take two handed swords for example: there are only two +1 specimen, one of them in the middle of nowhere (and unlikely to be found by players who don't scan each area in the game completely), the other one in Durlag's Tower (and therefore quite unattainable by low level characters).
So when you stumble across Spiderbane +2, one character can wield it while the other one continues to shatter one non-magical two hander after another.
The proficiency system of BG2 wasn't designed to suit the scarcity of BG1's weapon supply, but the abundance of BG2. Just look at how many exceptional long swords are easily attainable early in BG2. Blade of Roses, Adjatha the Drinker, Daystar, Namarra, Sword of Balduran, Flametongue, Ras... those are more than the exceptional long swords, bastard swords and scimitars of BG1 combined!
On top of that, BG1 does not only have fewer weapons, the characters are also lower in level, which means they have less proficiency points, making things even worse in comparison to BG2.
Considering the fact that BG1 is the introduction (ideally, new players play BG1 first), it makes sense to help new players finding "their" weapon by using the old proficiency system.
For us veterans, this isn't a problem of course - usually we even distribute our proficiency points according to what we know we find later. But let's think about those who don't know the game in and out...
Example: I just recently introduced my girlfriend into the game. She was able to make an acceptable weapon choice on her own in vanilla BG1 - going wrong is practically impossible. Letting her choose the proficiencies in BGtutu or BGT would have probably led to frustration.
Well, of course it is possible to just add craploads of different weapons throughout the game, but doing so and staying true to the original Baldurs Gate is well-nigh impossible.
5
Comments
Also, each NPC would have a default proficiency. In the original games, for example, Minsc has "Large Swords", "Spiked Weapons", and "Axes." He starts equipped with a 2H sword. That pretty easily translates into BG2 weapon proficiencies.
I think most players will build on what a charcter already has, in terms of stats and equipment, over selecting the same weapon for multiple NPCs.
But if you pick Maces for exeption, you have to search hard to find the first magical weapon.
But on the other side, there are plenty of non-magical weapons for everyone, so stick to them till you find a suiteble magic item.
There arent many magical missle weapons early in game and it didn't keep me from using them.
Btw. Katanas and the like will be added.
I think using the BG1 proficiencies would be the best solution as the items don't have to be touched that way and the players have time to decide until BG2 (for the very same reason, playing BG1 without kits and deciding in BG2 makes so much sense as well). Yes, it does. But it can still be problematic compared to BG1.
In BG1, the Long Sword +2 can be effecitvely used by Ajantis, Khalid, Minsc and Shar-Teel.
Let's assume you only have Ajantis and Minsc in your party - Minsc uses two handed swords, Ajantis uses bastard swords.
A weapon that can be used by almost every warrior in BG1 can only be used by some warriors in BG:EE. Players distribute up to 4 proficiency points before they even enter the game. Most players don't know what proficiencies the NPCs have before they meet them (unless they've played the game before or looked it up in a guide) - and then it's already too late.
Well, there aren't even enough non-magical scimitars around. And with the iron crisis and the breaking weapons, not having a magical weapon is extremely annoying.
BG2 is *so* nitty gritty with weapon types - each one needs its own proficiency! Ugh. Makes a lot of the weps you find in the game worthless and vendor bait. Like if you don't build for Scimitars, better sell that +3 one you get off Drizzt... whereas in BG1, you build off Large Sword and you're golden.
Maybe I'm a cheese boy. Still, it made the game better imo. I know, I know, its more like AD&D this way so I should love it (cuz I am a traditionalist) but maybe I'm just used to how I've done proficiencies over the last 10 years.
Plus styles are just lame. I'm sorry. More things you don't have the points to spend on.
@HahaCharade Could not agree more. I love BG1's system because of its flexibility. BG2 forces you to plan character builds and party comps around gear, which is boring.
The only issue with BG1's system is that, in the long term, it doesn't have enough options. Clerics, and a few other classes, could max out all available profs by the time BG2 rolls around.
Two Handed Weapons - Two handed swords and Quarterstaffs
Poles - Spears and Halberds
Spiked Weapons - Flail and Morningstar
Simple Weapons - Clubs, Hammers
Hafted Weapons - Mace, Axe
Large Swords - Longswords and Bastard Swords
Small Swords - Shortswords and Daggers
Exotic Swords - Katanas, Scimitars, Waki sashi, Ninja to
Light ranged weapons - Darts, Slings, Shortbow
Large ranged weapons - Longbow, Crossbow
Heavy 2 handed weapons - Two handed sword, Halberds
Light 2 handed weapons - spear, quarterstaff.
2 weapons per category was the idea.
Maybe longbows and shortbows in the same category, crossbows and slings in another, and darts moved into simple weapon proficiency.
And I think spears, staves and halberds need one category, 2-handed swords should be seperate.
Bg2 tweaks makes the system somewhat more logical. quoted from the readme:
"The first option, Rebalanced Weapon Proficiencies, attempts to rebalance the groupings of weapons proficiencies. There are three main changes:
• Wakizashis move from Wakizashi/Scimitar/Ninja-to to Katana proficiency
• Ninja-tos move from Wakizashi/Scimitar/Ninja-to to Short Sword proficiency
• Morningstars move from Flail/Morningstar to Mace proficiency
Wakizashis are very similar to katanas in usage, and ninja-tos are straight, short blades. Morningstars, while there are several variations in definition, are essentially spiked maces in the game, and have been moved out of the flail category and grouped with maces. The proficiencies themselves get renamed to reflect these changes. Weapon descriptions also get updated (English only). "
This should be implemented.
BG2 proficiencies are already in the game and all item descriptions and NPC proficiencies have already been changed to fit this system.
And I'm sure there will be an EE tweak pack.
For the most part weapon proficiencies were adapted to respect the weapon proficiencies that the characters already had in vBG1 and the weapons that they came equipped with on recruitment (for example Minsc has points in Two-handed sword).
Though some NPCs might have proficiencies that don't reflect what they had in vBG1 because we also wanted to spread out the proficiency types used so that 50% of the NPCs weren't using Long Swords.
Otherwise, someone should at the very least make a thread in the newbie-section warning about spending points in reduntant proficiencies that have next to no correlating weapons ingame.