[spoiler] was it really irenicus in the players dreams, or bhaal?
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Before SoD I was convinced that bhaal was alive and aware within all of his offspring. The first clue was early in BG1 when you hear a disembodied voice in your dreams after clearing the nashkel mines, and waking up to find you have some speical abilities. This continues throughout BG, and the disembodied voice takes on various physical forms of people that the player killed before. Then in SoA the voice takes on the appearance of irenicus, then sarevok and then imoen.
This voice apparantly had the sentience to recognize people who the player was close to in some way or another.
And then SoD happened. I don't see how "mysterious cowled pervert" satisfies the definitions of "people close to the player character". So that kind of challenges the way things were in BG and SoA as I thought of them.
This voice apparantly had the sentience to recognize people who the player was close to in some way or another.
And then SoD happened. I don't see how "mysterious cowled pervert" satisfies the definitions of "people close to the player character". So that kind of challenges the way things were in BG and SoA as I thought of them.
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In SoD dreams, Irenicus himself may be affecting those, he may be intervening directly in the dreams. In bg2 dreams, I think Irenicus does not do a thing, the taint continues this notion, because subconcious likes to think so, and the taint masquarades as Irenicus and Imoen. In bg2 Irenicus is far too busy within Spellhold and his other plans to enter dreams.
I play BG2 from 15 years or more, so there is little that I can be spoiled about, but I carefully avoid to read the SoD section as I would like to play a completely not spoiled first run when I will buy and play that game.
And I was not pleased to know here that also there charname has dreams.
I image that for first time players of the whole saga can be even worst, as 3 different games are spoiled at once.
Thank you.
I'm not actually sure what happened. SoD was supposed to make the transition easier, but playing it left me more confused than before. My problem is that I feel like beamdog are revising or misinterpreting the narrations of BGI, and sequences of BGII. It was originally implied that charname was actually two people in one, sort of like a split personality disorder. Now beamdog seem to think that it was all irenicus. I know he's a mad genius, but he's not a god.
1- I wanna retrieve Imoen
2- I wanna make Irenicus pay
3- I wanna make Irenicus pay, but first he'll tell me about my power.
The fact that PC got tortured with only one goal from Irenicus (unlocking his power) must have made PC think, whether consciously or not, that Irenicus is the key to PC's power, which is rather true, whether he directly helps by stimulating your essence, or indirectly helps by gorging your hatred, hence the dreams. Hatred is, from what Sarevok tells us in Hell, one way to embrace Bhaal's essence.
I'm not actually sure what happened. SoD was supposed to make the transition easier, but playing it left me more confused than before. My problem is that I feel like beamdog are revising or misinterpreting the narrations of BGI, and sequences of BGII. It was originally implied that charname was actually two people in one, sort of like a split personality disorder. Now beamdog seem to think that it was all irenicus. I know he's a mad genius, but he's not a god.
I've just restarted SOD because first attempt made me so angry I gave up. So just playing it as a game now and trying hard to basically ignore all the Irenicus stuff.
I've just had a dream sequence where Imoen asks me to kill her, she can't go on ect.
So Imoen, the annoyingly cheerful brat from the first game is all emo in SOD for no reason because she hasn't been imprisoned or tortured by Irenicus yet?
The game is good, but the writing, what were they thinking?
OK, they managed to get David Warner back on board, that's really not a good enough excuse to retro change the story just to overuse the voice acting.
The dreams now make no sense. I interpretated them as you did.
In BG it was the voice of Bhaal, the taint, trying to get you to accept the legacy (because he needs the Bhaalspawn to kill each other, that's the big plan).
In BG2, Irenicus has managed to awaken the taint more, it's voice is stronger. But because it was literally "totured out of you" by Irenicus, (and the game is biased towards the idea that Charname doen't want to become the new Lord of Murder) you hear the "voice" as Irenicus, the instruction coming from Irenicus, but it's always Bhaal really.
With SOD, it seems to be saying Irnicus already had a hotline to your subconscious, so that begs the question, what was all the elaborate dungeon and torture for?
He was feeling bored?
In the first dream, you asked about how you feel about killing Sarevok. The taint is trying to understand your reasons for killing another bhaalspawn and hopefully from that knowledge it can attempt to tempt you into killing the others.
The second dream it's trying to use your emotions into killing another bhaalspawn whose close to you named Imoen.
The third dream the taint uses Corwin and her daughter to try and tell you that your duty is to kill the other bhaalspawn.
The reason the taint takes on the hooded man 's figured is to disguise itself to put you off guard.
The whole Irenicuis torturing you in the dungeon is to see how much power the taint has in hopes it will be enough to save him from the curse.
Ist dream, Ok that ties in with BG.
2nd dream, makes no sense, you don't know at this point that Imoen is a Bhaalspawn. In fact, until the second game was written, she actually wasn't, So at this point in the saga, it definately shouldn't be hinted at. Just messes up the big reveal later.
2nd dream, why Corwin and daughter unless they are connected to the Bhaalspawn. Are they, is the daughter a Bhaalspawn, wouldn't put it past the writers, they sure do love their new NPC.
Using the "hooded man" makes no sense at all.
At no point does Irenicus talk about the level of power he requires in BG2, it's about releasing the power ( I presume) so he can do the soul transfer.
OK, it's all a bit "so how does that make any sense", but it can be put down to artistic licence.
Not so much license when you are messing around with other people's creations.
No, their probably not bhaalspawns, but at the same time Corwin is a character that is bound to her duty and that's why she left her daughter to go fight in SOD. That taint is using her as an example to tell you it's your duty to kill the other bhaalspawns.
Yes it does. Because the Taint knows you rejected it in the first game so it's using a person that you just met that you're curious about. It wants you to be interested in it's offer.
All we know is that Irenicuis was testing both the PC and Caelar because they both had divine blood in them. PC came out as this winner of the conflict so Irenicuis choose the PC. Also we have no idea how or what it takes to do the soul transfer spell. It could be all the torture in the dungeon was him trying to and failing to transfer the soul.
Going back to the dreams. Theres more proof that the characters in the dreams are the taint. The thing that attacks you at the end of every dream is the Slayer form. The taint is trying to tempt you with the slayer form. Giving you more power in the hopes you will kill more bhaalspawns. This is proven during the dream in which you're given the slayer ability. The PC calls the taint out saying that it's not Imoen in which the taint doesn't deny.
And that's where SOD fails so badly storywise.
BG2 is based on something unexpected happening in the Bhaalspawn saga, Irenicus.
It isn't until TOB that that saga gets back on track, killing Bhaalspawn, fighting for the throne because you offer slightly more hope for Faerun than the others.
The writers of BG2, I think, deliberately set up the scenario they did to make a cleanish break from BG. In some ways I wasn't that keen, but it allowed for a hugely expanded game and also allow a new audience to play the game.
BG2 does not need and has never needed any expansion on the themes that it developed because they were so well incorporated at the time.
BG1, on the other hand, ends just after you discover you are Bhaalspawn. There was so much potential to fill in the year following before Irenicus as you come to terms with the implications.
And keep the orignal integrity of BG2 of Irenicus being an unexpected (in prophecy terms) outlier that sets you back because of his actions to square one.
Good game, but it was definitely developed in haste. If the 1990s were as industrial as gaming is today every other developer would have 10 years worth of sequels planned "just in case".
Why does the game assume you are interested in Corwin? She's awful.
Does the dream change if you haven't taken her along?
And you met her what, a few weeks ago, when you have the option to take along NPC you have fought with to survive almost since leaving Candlekeep.
Can you not see the big difference between having your dreams invaded by somebody you kill (because ending a person's life is slightly more disturbing than listening to some career driven bore you have just met) and somebody the writers decide you like/are interested in?
Would have been far more in keeping with BG to have a leader who believed in Caelar that you had to kill invading your dreams, a la Mulahay.
More powerful as well.
It could be more disturbing, but I believe the taint is very desperate in this game so it's trying everything it can do. Also the taint did kind of do that with the first dream and unless your playing a character that plans to embrace you bhaal powers you pretty much tell Sarevok to f off. So the taint knows your not interested in dead guys.
It could have been interesting, but remember Caelar wasn't a bhaalspawn so it wouldn't fit with the Taints agenda to get you to kill more bhaalspawn.
If you read my earlier comments you could believe that the hooded man in the dreams is the taint of bhaal inside you.
I figure they had a great story going on with the shining lady and the end game revelation and then someone decided to somehow try to force the hooded man onto the player to get the game to match bg2. He is just as see through as miss ToB if not worse. If you leave out all his parts then SoD is a lot better.
Also, why is he always everywhere and none of the npcs finds that odd?
Of course we all know it's Irenicus. That's what is wrong with the story, they should have left well alone something that is so important to the impact of BG2. That you wake up without a clue, companions murdered, Imoen and yourself tortured, no idea who or why this has been done, and how do you even start to pull yoursef together.
@Iroumen
Couldn't agree more, it's blatent shoe horning in an element of the saga that the original hadn't started at this point in time for very important reasons.
In SoD (also as I recall),
The Hooded Man is interfering with/visiting Charname's dreams, something he's able to do until near the end, when Charname has sufficient power to kick him out of their head. I don't have access to the dialogue anymore, but I'm pretty sure this is stated fairly explicitly by The Hooded Man shortly after Charname remembers exactly what happened to Skie. The Hooded Man wants Charname to believe, or at least wonder if, they killed Skie while dreaming of a monster; in fact Charname was strong enough at the time to resist his command and then strong enough later to remember what truly happened. At that point, the Hooded Man loses any influence over Charname and can no longer invade their subconscious.
I *think* the intent might even have been to suggest that that's the moment when The Hooded Man really appreciates the scope of Charname's power, both realized and potential, and decides they're the one he's been looking for, but don't quote me on that.