Question about Kensai>mage vs f/m
islandking
Member Posts: 426
I read this informative discussion:
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/12042/fighter-mage-multi-class-vs-kensai-mage-dual-class/p1
Since it's archived, I'll post my question here.
The whole argument is about k(9)>m or k(13)>m vs f/m, what if kensai is leveled to 21 (insane, I know, but still mathematically possible), gets Critical Strike along with THAC0 and Damage bonus of kensai upto lvl21, wouldn't k(21)>m a clear winner over f/m?
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/12042/fighter-mage-multi-class-vs-kensai-mage-dual-class/p1
Since it's archived, I'll post my question here.
The whole argument is about k(9)>m or k(13)>m vs f/m, what if kensai is leveled to 21 (insane, I know, but still mathematically possible), gets Critical Strike along with THAC0 and Damage bonus of kensai upto lvl21, wouldn't k(21)>m a clear winner over f/m?
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However, it's true you're making life more difficult for yourself for a long period. A kensai hits most enemies easily even at level 13, so the extra levels don't gain you that much from that point of view. The availability of critical strike is also not that important to a kensai - they have far more uses of kai than they need and that together with high APR and the kensai damage bonus is more than enough damage for any enemy. Personally then I wouldn't want to go past L13 if I were intending to dual.
Oh and remember, these Thac0's was achieved with a +5 main weapon and a +2 second weapon, which technically says that before you get these goodies you will be stuck around 2-4 thac0, now that is not very promising for a someone who wants to reach high thac0. If course you can get pretty good thac0 if you dual at level 13, but there is no way the kensai/mage beats the multi if you want to be a REAL fighter.
Any idea of which has higher backstab damage output : assassin>fighter or kensai>thief ?
1-4 2x
5-8 3x
9-12 4x
13-15 5x
16-19 6x
20+ 7x
Here is the table for assassin backstab multiplier and as you see, if you dual at level 9/13 you will only get 4/5x backstab. At the same level the thief will get the same multiplier but will be stuck att 5x. And since I really do not recommend dualing too late into the game, I would recommend a kensai/thief, as they would still get the same backstab multiplier, but would also be more efficent in combat than the assassin kit.
Here you a complete table where you can compare the classes multiplier to backstabbing.
Unless you are going to dual at level 16-20 you will get the same backstab multiplier as a thief, so I would not recommend going with the assassin fighter. Remember that you won't get a any thief HLA's if you dual from assassin to figher, and spike traps and all that good stuff is really usefull lategame (Which you seem to be aiming for, that is, being very powerful late game.) If you dual to a thief you will also get more points to spend, making it easier for you to improve HiS and move silently. You will be overall better at backstabbing, and a better thief. Though my final recommendation is Fighter/thief multiclass.
I remember hearing somewhere that kai is basically +4 damage, so if dualled in lv13, a kensai(13)>thief will get +8 x5=40 more backstab dmg, so for assassin(21+)>fighter, as long as bs dmg before x7 modifier is greater than 20, a>f will win.
Of course, if kensai is dualled at 21, k(21)>t will get +11x5=55, then the "base" bs dmg would have to be 28 for a(21+)>f to catch up.
Hope I'm right about this..
If you do a solo run then this changes things, both for good and worse.
Haven't played for a long time
Part of that is a general paradox involving the difficulty curve: for min/max differences to really show the best, you'd need a game heavily modded towards difficulty; however, those mods tend to have non-linear difficulty curves that peak in the early/mid game rather than the end game (where you have every item and spell imaginable to work with). That is essentially the inverse of the power level curve for a high-level dual, who has a marked dip at early/mid game but a high peak at end game. In essence, you'll end up lacking power where you need it most, and overkill it where you already have everything anyway.
For backstabs, the optimal way depends on what you define as cheese and/or refuse to abuse; I'm talking of course about Mislead and how it works with backstab. Mislead will keep you permanently invisible as long as the clone created by the spell isn't destroyed - parking it somewhere safe means you can walk in and backstab on pretty much EVERY attack for the entire fight. That, consequently, favors high APR + high pre-multiplicative damage, which usually means a thief/mage hybrid to use Black Blade of Disaster (which has - wait for it - disastrously high base damage to be multiplied with backstab).
If like me you are of the opinion that using Mislead this way is a bug too severe to be using (and you don't have to be, it's just personal preference), then different concerns emerge. You want to maximize the opener damage, but since you don't need to sustain backstabs APR don't matter; that means you can use things like Staff of the Ram for the opener, and then switch to something else for sustained damage (usually high APR dual-wield). Various class setups can make this work very well, including mage/thief, fighter/thief, or the aforementioned cleric/thief (particularly Lathander duals due to the APR buff). It's difficult to pinpoint one definitive optimal choice because there are variables outside of that singular character to take into consideration.
*there are very few niche exceptions, such as when dualing out of thieves; however even there it's basically only in the lvl 9-11 range and not higher.
I prefer being sure that I'll deal 80 than dealing something random between 60 and 100.
High priority targets that you want to backstab are mages, most of the time, and dealing 100 will do the same as dealing 80, which is killing them, but dealing 60 might leave them near death which let them trigger contingencies etc...
Being sure of what you will deal is my top priority for an assassin.
But it's absolutely true that B->M can be the better choice in many setups as well.
He looses against the lev9-13 dual as he takes forever to reach high mage levels when the early duals, and specially the lev9 one, take only little more time than a single class mage to get the really good arcane spells.
He looses against multi as he have to wait 21 levels of fighter and 22 of mage to be fully operative, he will also have only very few HLA, some fighter ones for the last fighter levels and some mage ones late game.
The Multi get HLA for every level up from 3M XP total up to the end, choosing every HLA is allowed for at least one of his classes.
The dual chose only in his active class, the one that can be leveled up, at the same rate that a single class has, so for mage class from lev 18.
A F21->M will have in end game 2 fighter HLA and at level cap will not be able to have all the mage's ones, he will have to choose the more important ones as getting the fighter's levels has eated more than 1/3 of the xp and he will start again to get HLAs only at 6.25M XP at a rate of about 500K xp/level.
Note that while most HLAs will become unavailable after you dual, Use Any Item will in fact remain in effect even while the Thief class is inactive.
1. I read it somewhere that a fighter with 5/2 apr will get 2 attacks at 1st round, 3 attacks at 2nd round, but what if he does something else (like drink a potion or switch targets..etc) in his 2nd round but before his 3rd attack actually takes place, will the 1/2 attack inhered from the 1st round carry on into his next round?
2. What does thief's set snare score do, beside increases set trap success rate, will it also increase the regular and HLA traps' damage? What's the recommended value of it? Thank you.
I don't know the answer for your first question.