Montaron vs. dualing Shar-Teel for backstabbing goodness?
Oxford_Guy
Member Posts: 3,729
Hi, I'm currently running an evil (apart from Imoen) party through BGT-WEIDU, in training for BGEE. I'm using Imoen as a straight utility thief (traps, locks mostly), but also want a strong stealthy back-stabbing fighter/thief (or fighter>thief). I'm trying to decide between Monteron and a Shar-Teel dualed to a thief, which do you think would be best? Monteron has the shorty bonuses to saving throws and +1 with a sling, but Shar-Teel is much stronger, though has worse Con.
My current party (first time I've run an evil party, its fun!) looks like
Kagain (Dwarf Fighter, my main tank, would like to replace with Dorn in BGEE, though)
CHARNAME (lawful evil Elf Fighter/Mage, with profs in 2-handed swords and longbows)
Monteron (Halfling Fighter/Thief, focus on hide shadows/move silently)
Imoen (straight utility Thief, won't dual her) - was tempted to replaceher with Safana, who is CN,, but Imoen is better and won't leave the party even if my rep is bad)
Viconia (Elf Cleric)
Edwin (Human Conjurer)
Also, If going for Shar-Teel, what would be the best level to dual her at, without spending forever waiting for her to get her fighter skills back? I'm think even after level 3 fighter (for the bonus proficiency) might be okay, though that means picking her up quite early (she starts at level 4 if CHARNAME is level 3 or more), so she starts at level 2, but Mutamin's garden is quite a challenge early on (though I guess I could try to avoid to worst of it until later). Thanks!
My current party (first time I've run an evil party, its fun!) looks like
Kagain (Dwarf Fighter, my main tank, would like to replace with Dorn in BGEE, though)
CHARNAME (lawful evil Elf Fighter/Mage, with profs in 2-handed swords and longbows)
Monteron (Halfling Fighter/Thief, focus on hide shadows/move silently)
Imoen (straight utility Thief, won't dual her) - was tempted to replaceher with Safana, who is CN,, but Imoen is better and won't leave the party even if my rep is bad)
Viconia (Elf Cleric)
Edwin (Human Conjurer)
Also, If going for Shar-Teel, what would be the best level to dual her at, without spending forever waiting for her to get her fighter skills back? I'm think even after level 3 fighter (for the bonus proficiency) might be okay, though that means picking her up quite early (she starts at level 4 if CHARNAME is level 3 or more), so she starts at level 2, but Mutamin's garden is quite a challenge early on (though I guess I could try to avoid to worst of it until later). Thanks!
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Comments
You ask me, I vote Montaron. He's reliable the whole game. I don't like the "dual, it's more powerful by the end!" argument because the actual challenge is getting through the game before the end. Your idea of putting Gauntlets of Ogre Power on him is excellent as well. His strength is definitely good, but once he has those he is a whole other level of kickass for sure.
I also kind of enjoyed getting him proficient in Axes, weird as that sounds. You probably won't be doing this since you have Kagain, but anyway, I did that so he could use the Throwing Axe +2 as his ranged, thus equipping Kiel's Buckler in his off-hand. Now I realize it would be better to just do that same tactic with a Sling though, derp.
Level 5 gets you +1 to saving throws, more HP and an additional -2 to her thac0
Level 6 gets you another prof point, even more HP and another -1 to thac0
Shar-teel's biggest advantages over Montaron are her thac0 bonuses from having a high STR and those extra weapon proficiencies she gets as a fighter. This'll matter less if you're playing Tutu without a mod to un-nerf mastery, though.
You can get her very easily & avoid Mutamin's gardens almost entirely by sneaking around the temple outside of Beregost. (Just watch out for the vampiric wolf on the eastern side of the map).
Personally, I don't like dual classing her because she's the strongest evil melee option. With three to four pips in Large Swords and Spider's Bane, she'll chunk mobs left and right.
The nice thing about dual-classing out of fighter is you still have the most important thing fighter gets you, more HP. Yeah okay you won't get your bonus thaco back for awhile nor the extended proficiency points but even as a fighter 7/thief 1, she's still really effective and turning enemies into goo.
To min/max fighter levels, dual-class at 7 for the bonus attack per round and the ability to reach thief 8.
To min/max thief levels, dual-class at 6 so you can still reach level 9 thief.
It isn't until 16 it affects melee and even then, it's just +1 damage.
17: +1 hit/damage
18: +1 hit/+2 damage
18-01: +1 hit/+3 damage
18-51: +2 hit/+3 damage
18-76: +2 hit/+4 damage
18-91: +2 hit/+5 damage
18-00: +3 hit/+6 damage
19: +3 hit/+7 damage
Rogue classes gain thac0 decently. Considering the huge-ass bonus to hit you get for popping out of stealth, you should be hitting pretty reliably at every stage of the game.
I have noticed I tend to get really terrible rolls when I try to land a backstab, though. Nothing like rolling a 4 when all you need is a 5 to hit, or something.
A thief with 18 STR gets the same thac0 bonus as a fighter with 18/50 STR (+1). You get +2 from 18/51-18/99, which becomes +3 at 18/00 and 19. The difference between Proficient and Specialized is +1 thac0. Any thief stealthed & positioned correctly gets a +4 bonus on their swing. Outside of of super-strong fighters, the thac0 difference between the two isn't terribly significant. (Although fighters gain an automatic +1 thac0 every level, while thieves must wait for every other level).
Bear in mind that even with a thac0 of 10 (which is easily attainable by mid-game in BG1), you're still going to miss half the time.
I won't do that because my elf fighter/mage CHARNAME will be getting Spider's Bane - Free Action + Web spell sounds promising :-)
I've actually decided to keep Monty in the end, have got quite attached to the gruff little fella. Think I'm going to give him pips in long swords at lvl 3 (and 6, eventually), so that he can use Varscona (at least when not backstabbing), as no one else in my party (see above) has profs in long swords and seems a waste to give it Imoen, he won't melee much. I did consider giving him single weapon style instead, for better crit chance when backstabbing etc. but as I'm going to have him mostly in the studded leather Shadow Armour, a good large shield (which usefully he can still use with his sling) seems a better option.
I think when Imoen gets to lvl 4 I'm going to give her single weapon style to improve her AC instead, then perhaps Scimitar at lvl 8, so she can use the +2 one from the top of Durlag's tower, though longswords or clubs might be more useful for a thief in BG2 (remember am playing BGT, so she will carry-through).
Am a bit undecided what to do with Kagain - currently has 3 pips in axes, 1 in crossbows, 1 in single weapon style (which he started with), am not sure whether to put another pip into single weapon style, or whether to forget that and tank him up with a big shield and put another pip into axes next instead...