Dragonspear Content in BGII **Contains Dragonspear Spoilers**

gugulug5000

The possibility of Beamdog releasing a DLC or patch to add the Dragonspear characters to BGII has been talked about for a while now, though we haven't heard anything about it from the developers. All the same, I'm hopeful that we'll get something, so I thought I'd start a discussion on what we would want in the hypothetical DLC (or patch).

Some of the big points I've seen that people would like are:
-Add the Dragonspear NPCs to BGII (possibly with quests for them)
-Continue Skie's storyline with Soul Taker dagger
-Continue Caelar's storyline (canon would be that she survived), or adding her as an NPC. Romance option?
-Dragonspear items added to the game
-Baeloth added to BGII

What other things would people want in the DLC/Patch? If it were released as a DLC that cost money would you buy it? What would you not want to see in it? Would you want a way to save Skie, or just put her soul to rest? What do people think of adding Caelar as an NPC?

Arunsun

If you import a SoD game to BG2EE, there'll be SoD items all over the world, based on what you found during the said SoD game, and even if Caelar survives the final battle in SoD, well, she closes the portal from inside Avernus, which pretty much dooms her anyway, so it would make little sense that she could be found in BG2.
The other three points really would be nice, I agree.

Papa_Lou

I'd definitely like to see some sort of continuity, as I loved SoD. I agree with the NPCs and the Skie storyline, however, as was said above, I think Caelar can be left alone, as it makes sense for the Charname to never hear from her again. Of course, some subtle hints such as people mentioning her name here and there would be nice.

I also don't know if we'd need to see every single SoD companion return in BG2EE. As much as I loved M'khiin, I don't really know where she'd fit in, or why she'd be in that area in the first place. Of course, if someone has a good reason I'd love to hear it.

And as for Baeloth, I'm not sure he really NEEDS to come back, either. He wasn't exactly important in either BGEE or SoD. Cool character, but not exactly the most important character, story-wise.

But if any of this ever became available, you know damn well I'd be throwing every cent toward Beamdog.

shawne

Papa_Lou said:

I'd definitely like to see some sort of continuity, as I loved SoD. I agree with the NPCs and the Skie storyline, however, as was said above, I think Caelar can be left alone, as it makes sense for the Charname to never hear from her again. Of course, some subtle hints such as people mentioning her name here and there would be nice.

The thing is, the player makes repeated trips to Hell in SoA alone (the Planar Sphere, the final battle with Irenicus), so it's almost weirder now that you don't cross paths with Caelar again. Gameplay-wise, you could start her off as a fallen paladin and do a proper redemption storyline to get her back up to her previous power levels.

Papa_Lou said:

I also don't know if we'd need to see every single SoD companion return in BG2EE. As much as I loved M'khiin, I don't really know where she'd fit in, or why she'd be in that area in the first place. Of course, if someone has a good reason I'd love to hear it.

Off the top of my head, SoD glosses over a lot of M'Khiin's backstory with her father and brothers. We never actually see her clan, or hear their side of things - and there's a goblin population in the sewers of Athkatla anyway, so there might be an opportunity to explore that a bit more. Have her father be possessed by an evil spirit, or something along those lines where she feels obligated to take action not as a Grubdoubler but as a shaman. Alternately, she worships Maglubiyet and he's the goblin god of Planning, maybe he's got some scheme regarding the Bhaalspawn?

Papa_Lou said:

And as for Baeloth, I'm not sure he really NEEDS to come back, either. He wasn't exactly important in either BGEE or SoD. Cool character, but not exactly the most important character, story-wise.

If we ignore the Black Pits 2 storyline (and really, we might as well), you could give Baeloth a cameo in Ust Natha, maybe make him recruitable there - it'd at least add some character dynamics to the whole Underdark section where you don't get the opportunity to tinker with your roster.

gugulug5000

Arunsun said:

If you import a SoD game to BG2EE, there'll be SoD items all over the world, based on what you found during the said SoD game

Really?! I imported my game and only found a few new shaman items around the world when I went through BGII. Maybe it bugged on me since I had issues with importing in Dragonspear as well.

I think every NPC (Caelar included) could be done, but the real question is should they be done. I would love for them all to make it to BGII, but they would need reasons for being down in Amn now and the stories should not feel forced. I absolutely loved Baeloth in Dragonspear and I think he would be my first choice if I had to pick just one of the NPCs to be brought into BGII.

More references to Siege of Dragonspear scattered throughout BGII would be great. It's weird that there was this huge crusade going on and no one even mentions it in Amn.

If Beamdog just decided to do all of this in a Tales of the Sword Coast type expansion (with other completely new content added) I would definitely throw my money at them.

Francois

shawne said:

The thing is, the player makes repeated trips to Hell in SoA alone (the Planar Sphere, the final battle with Irenicus), so it's almost weirder now that you don't cross paths with Caelar again. Gameplay-wise, you could start her off as a fallen paladin and do a proper redemption storyline to get her back up to her previous power levels.

The planar sphere is in the Abyss, not the nine Hells. Even in Hell we don't go back to the same plane she is. I don't think we could ever run into her in SoA, but we could summon her in ToB like other companions. OR If they ever make a Planescape Torment EE, they could put her as a new NPC when we go to Avernus!

Intersting fact, if you side with her with a party of 5 or less at the end you can have her in your party during the final battle.

The story with Skie is the one that screams for continuation. And I would like to have Jan and Glint together.

sazzie

all the money would be thrown for this. *ALL* of it .....

ive said in other threads that the simplest way (IMO of course) for them to bridge the lack of SoD in BG2, if they cant add NPCs etc, is to add books and lore items because:

- we dont know how long we have been in the dungeon
- i fully believe in a massive siege like that with all the different cities involved has at least one scribe that would have made a journal or book detailing what happened
- said scribe would definitely have traveled faerun hocking the story.
- we have so many books relating to other deities, battles, and general history why not SoD
- book items may be cheaper and less time consuming to implement into the games compared to NPCs and quests
- the books would mention the now disgraced hero of BG but the people of amn would not have bothered themselves with the iron crisis and therefore have no idea that the hero now walks amongst them, save for a select few
- these books would then be found randomly as loot items or in random treasure chests and could create a journal entry "wow, my deeds in BG and the SoD have made it to amn, i best keep a low profile"

i also said in another thread that the NPCs could be implemented in realistic ways. out of the new NPCs i only used corwin (never even found baeloth in my BG1 run through) and i could see our CHARNAME finding her in the graveyard district one day standing near a grave. corwin is at this grave because she promised one of the soldiers fighting against caelar that she would take their remains to be with their family in amn should they die. the nameless soldier didnt have any family left alive and was from amn so she made the journey (with or without rohma) and bumps into us. a conversation would then ensue where we tell her we found the person who hurt skie and are hunting them down. we can offer her a spot in the party if she wants it blah blah blah and go from there. she could be like yoshi (without the geas) and have been sent on a secret mission, to look for us in amn after burying the soldier, by entar so he can have us bought back to BG for retrial. the soultaker dagger could then be found in bodhis lair for BG2 progress or be a loot item from irenicus and skies quest is resolved in ToB. if we find it in bodhis lair and have corwin (for example) she could disappear for a few days, like jaheira does, and come back saying she has a 'contact' that she has met with and we are to meet them with her at a tavern, inn or temple, so we can restore skie. thats where we meet entar and a priest/mage who is able to restore skie and clear our name so we are allowed back to BG

the weapons and extra items would be a great bonus but i think the main thing would be the continuation of the story and NPC additions

as mentioned above the NPCs can be fit in but it may take time to do it. id personally like a throwback to BG1 where there are random maps to explore that have some of the NPCs (m'khin for example) there. these maps could only trigger when exiting places like the d'arnise hold or trademeet much like the wilderness maps of BG1. one of these maps could contain a shaman stronghold to give that class one too

to get caelar into the game the limited wish or wish spell could be used to 'summon' her or she could be a prisoner of the planar prison somehow (maybe the bountry hunters that captured haer'dalis' troupe found her) where once we escape we escort caelar to the radient heart thus beginning her path to redemption.

some of the NPCs or items could also be added to watchers keep, given its got alot of twists and turns id be shocked and amused to find a new NPC waiting for me in there

besides SoD content, something id *love* to have added would be the extra race and class options that we get in IWD2. SoD to me expanded a few different race and class options with the characters they introduced. we didnt get to control some for ourselves but it would be great if we could create it for ourselves like being able to create a drow and how that impacts us on our journey given as a bhaalspawn we're already considered pretty shady or being an aasimer and wondering how in the nine hells bhaal pulled that combo off.

sorry if ive ranted and it doesnt make sense haha. i think SoD opened the door on so many great ways the BG story could be improved and i dont care (i lie, i really would like to see it ASAP) how long it takes ... i need closure

shawne

Francois said:

The planar sphere is in the Abyss, not the nine Hells.

Sure, but given how often the Blood War sends forces back and forth between Avernus and the first layer of the Abyss, that'd be one way to justify her presence there.

Francois said:

The story with Skie is the one that screams for continuation.

See, functionally and structurally speaking, the thing with Skie is the only loose plot thread I can't see continuing. BG2 already has one female thief in peril (Imoen), it wouldn't do to just repeat the whole thing with Skie - to say nothing of the fact that rescuing her would clear your name in Baldur's Gate, but you don't get to go back to Baldur's Gate in BG2 anyway so what difference would it make. That whole storyline was one big fustercluck IMO so it's better off forgotten.

gugulug5000

@sazzie You make a lot of really good points. I really like the idea of adding some books throughout the game. The other suggestion you made that I really like is more wilderness areas. That way they could add more content and make an awesome expansion without trying to shoe horn it in somewhere (between BGII and ToB for example). It wouldn't need to be as flashy as Dragonspear, but I would definitely welcome a new expansion.

sazzie

thank you @gugulug5000

books to me is the most cost effective method. it enhances the story and adds depth without anything else needing to be done. players wouldnt need to do anything either as the books would be like other loot items.

wilderness places would do just that. adding random spots that we either find or we dont to explore and the NPCs could be just there minding their own business so we can go 'huh, you did live, awesome' and move on

Arunsun

shawne said:

Papa_Lou said:

I'd definitely like to see some sort of continuity, as I loved SoD. I agree with the NPCs and the Skie storyline, however, as was said above, I think Caelar can be left alone, as it makes sense for the Charname to never hear from her again. Of course, some subtle hints such as people mentioning her name here and there would be nice.

The thing is, the player makes repeated trips to Hell in SoA alone (the Planar Sphere, the final battle with Irenicus), so it's almost weirder now that you don't cross paths with Caelar again. Gameplay-wise, you could start her off as a fallen paladin and do a proper redemption storyline to get her back up to her previous power levels.

Papa_Lou said:

I also don't know if we'd need to see every single SoD companion return in BG2EE. As much as I loved M'khiin, I don't really know where she'd fit in, or why she'd be in that area in the first place. Of course, if someone has a good reason I'd love to hear it.

Off the top of my head, SoD glosses over a lot of M'Khiin's backstory with her father and brothers. We never actually see her clan, or hear their side of things - and there's a goblin population in the sewers of Athkatla anyway, so there might be an opportunity to explore that a bit more. Have her father be possessed by an evil spirit, or something along those lines where she feels obligated to take action not as a Grubdoubler but as a shaman. Alternately, she worships Maglubiyet and he's the goblin god of Planning, maybe he's got some scheme regarding the Bhaalspawn?

Papa_Lou said:

And as for Baeloth, I'm not sure he really NEEDS to come back, either. He wasn't exactly important in either BGEE or SoD. Cool character, but not exactly the most important character, story-wise.

If we ignore the Black Pits 2 storyline (and really, we might as well), you could give Baeloth a cameo in Ust Natha, maybe make him recruitable there - it'd at least add some character dynamics to the whole Underdark section where you don't get the opportunity to tinker with your roster.

I would like to add a few precisions to your post:
The player does not exactly make trips to and back from Hell:
In the Forgotten Realms, the Nine Hells (Avernus, where you go to fight Belhifet, is the first of them) are the birthplace of devils, while demons come from the Abyss. And those you fight during the planar sphere quest are tanar'ri (demons). This means you go to some layer of the Abyss, not Hell.
And when you go to "Hell" for the final battle, once again it's not Hell, but rather a plane created by your essence. It's essentially the same pocket plane you have in ToB, except you do not have any control on it yet, hence the differences.
So basically you never go to any of the layers of Hell.

As for Baeloth, well, the BP2 storyline is supposed to happen during ToB (since Neera's questline brings you there), but somehow it's already ignored in ToB since there are two superpowerful Bhaalspawns there (the ones you fight as your last arena fight), both able to change into Bhaal's avatars, which means they have a fair share of essence, and thus their death is a necessity lore-wise, but they are never mentioned.

ineth

gugulug5000 said:

Arunsun said:

If you import a SoD game to BG2EE, there'll be SoD items all over the world, based on what you found during the said SoD game

Really?! I imported my game and only found a few new shaman items around the world when I went through BGII.

It's not that many actually, by default.

But you can install Edvin's Unofficial Item Pack to transfer more SoD items to BG2.

smeagolheart

the only crossover I'm aware of is Zaviak (of Zaviak's Vision Quest) is present in both BGII and SOD.

gugulug5000

smeagolheart said:

the only crossover I'm aware of is Zaviak (of Zaviak's Vision Quest) is present in both BGII and SOD.

If I'm not mistaken Voghiln also shows up in the Black Pits 2 (I haven't played them all the way through still but I'm pretty sure that's him).

Arunsun

gugulug5000 said:

smeagolheart said:

the only crossover I'm aware of is Zaviak (of Zaviak's Vision Quest) is present in both BGII and SOD.

If I'm not mistaken Voghiln also shows up in the Black Pits 2 (I haven't played them all the way through still but I'm pretty sure that's him).

Yep, and incidentally he makes a very short appearance in Neera's questline, though you can't even talk to him.

gugulug5000

Arunsun said:

gugulug5000 said:

smeagolheart said:

the only crossover I'm aware of is Zaviak (of Zaviak's Vision Quest) is present in both BGII and SOD.

If I'm not mistaken Voghiln also shows up in the Black Pits 2 (I haven't played them all the way through still but I'm pretty sure that's him).

Yep, and incidentally he makes a very short appearance in Neera's questline, though you can't even talk to him.

Does he? Hmm... perhaps I need to play through the game again...

If that's the case, then Voghiln is already in the area of Amn, so adding him as an NPC makes sense.

shawne

gugulug5000 said:

If that's the case, then Voghiln is already in the area of Amn, so adding him as an NPC makes sense.

The Black Pits 2 and Neera's questline takes place in Thay.

Arunsun said:

I would like to add a few precisions to your post:
The player does not exactly make trips to and back from Hell:
In the Forgotten Realms, the Nine Hells (Avernus, where you go to fight Belhifet, is the first of them) are the birthplace of devils, while demons come from the Abyss. And those you fight during the planar sphere quest are tanar'ri (demons). This means you go to some layer of the Abyss, not Hell.

The Blood War often brings tanar'ri invaders to Avernus, and baatezu invaders to Pazunia (the first layer of the Abyss). You could justify Caelar's presence during the Planar Sphere quest by saying she fought her way through one of the portals the tanar'ri use.

Arunsun said:

And when you go to "Hell" for the final battle, once again it's not Hell, but rather a plane created by your essence. It's essentially the same pocket plane you have in ToB, except you do not have any control on it yet, hence the differences.

The text of SoA disagrees with you: "You were the Slayer, you conquered a portion of Hell itself, and you crushed everyone that stood in your path."

Again, not Avernus, but close enough to justify a character passing through.

Arunsun

shawne said:

gugulug5000 said:

If that's the case, then Voghiln is already in the area of Amn, so adding him as an NPC makes sense.

The Black Pits 2 and Neera's questline takes place in Thay.

Arunsun said:

I would like to add a few precisions to your post:
The player does not exactly make trips to and back from Hell:
In the Forgotten Realms, the Nine Hells (Avernus, where you go to fight Belhifet, is the first of them) are the birthplace of devils, while demons come from the Abyss. And those you fight during the planar sphere quest are tanar'ri (demons). This means you go to some layer of the Abyss, not Hell.

The Blood War often brings tanar'ri invaders to Avernus, and baatezu invaders to Pazunia (the first layer of the Abyss). You could justify Caelar's presence during the Planar Sphere quest by saying she fought her way through one of the portals the tanar'ri use.

Arunsun said:

And when you go to "Hell" for the final battle, once again it's not Hell, but rather a plane created by your essence. It's essentially the same pocket plane you have in ToB, except you do not have any control on it yet, hence the differences.

The text of SoA disagrees with you: "You were the Slayer, you conquered a portion of Hell itself, and you crushed everyone that stood in your path."

Again, not Avernus, but close enough to justify a character passing through.

Well, one could always find a justification, but both of these are rather far-fetched. There is no devil in the enemies present in the Planar sphere demonic plane, so it would seem rather strange that a place of Hell would be simply "colonized" by Tanar'ri. Not impossible, but really far from a convincing explanation.
As for the plane where you go with Irenicus, from Wraith Sarevok's speech, he says it is Bhaal's realm, and Bhaal never had any dominion over any part of Hell. So basically you and I have both found an in-game quotation that backs our point up. That's an inconsistency in the game, there are others, but I'd definitely not use a plot-twist based on an inconsistency to bring Caelar back.

If anything was to bring her back, well, I guess it should be that you can call her in your Pocket Plane once in ToB, because why not, the spirit tells you to summon former companions, so you could try Caelar and it could work. Either that, or an extra side-quest with some guy opening a portal to Hell to summon a devil and Caelar steps out instead, or something along those lines. They'd definitely need a more viable convincing explanation than just "Hey, just crossed your road totally randomly on a random plane among the millions there are".