can I be an effective all-around thief?

trialus

I am really looking forward to giving BG a go when it releases in a few weeks. I have always been a fan of playing thief/rogue characters in RPGs and would like to play a thief in BG. After doing some general research I've got a few questions ...

1) is it possible to play a thief as my player char and have that char effectively fill all the thief roles? I'd like to be able to stealthily scout ahead of my group, find/disable the traps in the way, set some traps of my own, get in a backstab, then maybe switch to a short bow to finish out combat. Is it possible to do all of this well with one char or will I be spreading my skills to thin and end up not being very effective in anything?

2) with the bg2 kits being implemented is it worth considering one of them for what I describe above? Bounty hunter seems like it might be up my alley and it sounds like the extra traps are really helpful at higher levels. But, would the decrease in skill points hinder the rest of what I'm after?

3) suggested race?

4) I've really just been considering straight thief or its kits... should I be looking at any multiclassing options?

5) not really interested in pickpocket, but should I be considering detect illusion with the other skill?

Oh, and this is for a normal play through, not a solo. I know there are other thieves available for the group, but really like the idea of my main PC filling most of the classic thief roles.

Thanks in advance for the help!

Brude

If you don't mind a few offhand spoilers, go to http://playithardcore.com and check out the writeups on the class and kits. Every question will be answered in detail, but briefly ---

1) Yes, you can do this but at the start it's better to focus on maxing out one or two skills.

2) All the thief kits are very good, but the playstyles are vastly different.

3) Certain races get bonuses to different thieving skills. Google around and you'll find a few charts.

4) Thieves work well with just about any other class. Popular: Fighter/Thief, Thief/Mage. Underrated: Cleric/Thief.

5) Detect illusion was originally added in BG2, and has no use in BG1. I do not know if that's going to change in BG:EE.

reedmilfam

You can totally do this with a baseline thief. Multi-class/dual class is pretty workable with thieves, too. I think fighter/thief is pretty solid and won't gimp your thief skills too much (with boosts to THACO and whatnot). However, for the massive backstab, staying pure thief lets you level this faster.

HaHaCharade

trialus said:

I am really looking forward to giving BG a go when it releases in a few weeks. I have always been a fan of playing thief/rogue characters in RPGs and would like to play a thief in BG. After doing some general research I've got a few questions ...

1) is it possible to play a thief as my player char and have that char effectively fill all the thief roles? I'd like to be able to stealthily scout ahead of my group, find/disable the traps in the way, set some traps of my own, get in a backstab, then maybe switch to a short bow to finish out combat. Is it possible to do all of this well with one char or will I be spreading my skills to thin and end up not being very effective in anything?

2) with the bg2 kits being implemented is it worth considering one of them for what I describe above? Bounty hunter seems like it might be up my alley and it sounds like the extra traps are really helpful at higher levels. But, would the decrease in skill points hinder the rest of what I'm after?

3) suggested race?

4) I've really just been considering straight thief or its kits... should I be looking at any multiclassing options?

5) not really interested in pickpocket, but should I be considering detect illusion with the other skill?

Oh, and this is for a normal play through, not a solo. I know there are other thieves available for the group, but really like the idea of my main PC filling most of the classic thief roles.

Thanks in advance for the help!

Playing a pure thief as your main might be a fun experience, but to be honest in my opinion at least, its not the most effective character. Combining it with a fighter class as @Reedmilfam mentioned will you get you more mileage out of your main in terms of importance to your party. It will also enhance your ability to backstab and give you more hit points. You really want a main that can hold his own, as he's going to be the best character you can get in the whole game (since you build him from scratch). Making him a single-classed thief, makes him very weak for the long term. Also, I view thieves as an auxiliary class... something that's needed but I think should always be combined with another class to be most effective. Save single-classed characters for Fighters and Mages. Stack thieves with another class.

ryuken87

I'm not going to answer these in order:

3) Halfling. 19 dex and the biggest racial bonuses means they get the most thief points which is what you want.

1) A 20 dex (after the tome) halfling with the Boots of Stealth and Shadow Armour will have the following spread of points pp/ol/ft/ms/hits/di/st (I'm sure you can work out what they mean).

40/40/25/63/68/0/15

Then as a level 10 single class thief, you have 265 points to spread amongst them. Ignoring PP and DI (since it only becomes amazing in BG2 and you start with 0 points in it) you just about have enough points to do everything else.

2&4) Bounty Hunter traps are great. Regular traps do 2d8+5 in an AoE, BH traps do 3d8+5 save vs spells at -4 or be slowed in an AoE. Assassin's points are too gimped, Swashbuckler is feasible but less fun due to the lack of backstabs.

Multis are great. Halfling can't do M/T or C/T though. You lose two thief levels but gain a lot. F/T and M/T are some of my favourite combinations, both are excellent. You will have a stronger character overall but won't be able to do everything. Gnome thief/illusionist could be good substituting invisibility for stealth points. C/T is great for utility with neat tricks like disabling traps under Sanctuary but lacks offensive power and has poor equipment choice so I don't like it much.

A level 10 Bounty Hunter has 220 at level 10 with +15 in set traps (effectively 235). A level 8 multiclass has 215 at thief level 8. You can now do the rest of the maths and decide how to distribute your points.

5) DI is ok in BG1 to get rid of Mirror Image, but since you start with 0 points I'd avoid it. Great in BG2 when every mage has powerful illusions.

trialus

Thank you guys for the info, thoughts and resources. Ryuken87, especially, helped me understand the systems involved quite a bit better. Deciding now between bounty hunter and F/T multi...kinda silly to obsess much about it, I guess, but would like to take the same char through bg2 as well.

Thanks again!

CaptRory

One thing about Thieving it Up, you get a certain number of skill points per level to apply to thief skills. You also get a free thief NPC right outside the starting area. If you focus on a few skills, she can focus on a few other skills.

Like, say I'm rolling up a Thief and put enough points to get Open Locks to 100 (or dumping everything in to get close) I don't have points to spend elsewhere at level 1. So I take Imoen and have her focus on Find Traps and between the two of us we can open any lock and find almost every trap, in the entire BG Series at the start of the first game. Once Imoen maxes out her part (say Find Traps) you can dual class her to a mage and your thief guy starts on the more secondary skills like hiding and sneaking and detecting illusions and setting traps and what not.

Essentially, by using two thieves to cover the really basic stuff first, you can start working on the rest of the thief portfolio with a quickness.

Oh, and Find Traps is one of maybe two skills that's really good for doubling down on. Traps are annoying, so having two thieves looking, provided they're spread out a bit, increases your chances of finding something before someone steps on it.

bigdogchris

If you want to play an 'all around' thief, where you can excel in many area's, I suggest playing a single class Thief. If you want a Thief that is more combat focused, try a multi-class Fighter/Thief, which I prefer.

I also think it's a good idea that in the beginning of the game focus on putting points into pick locks and disarm traps, as you will be using them a lot. Once you build up a couple level of points buying into those two skills, you'll have many more levels to develop the other skills that become more useful later in the game.

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ryuken87

@tilly Your numbers are off. You can't just divide a multi's skill points by two because level progression isn't linear. A multi vs pure at 1m exp = 315/365 points, 2m = 365/490, 3m = 415/590. By late game SoA, a multi is going to have enough points for everything bar PP and the points a pure thief gets will start becoming redundant. Unkitted single class thieves really don't have anything to offer over a multi after a certain point.

Some of your other numbers are also off. You suggest 125 in locks and disarm traps when they don't improve beyond 100, and suggest 100 in each of the stealth scores when they do improve beyond 100.

@CaptRory Nothing wrong with two thieves in BG1 and it can be very helpful early on, but doubling up on find/disarm traps is a total waste. If you have one thief good at it then the second becomes redundant.

ryuken87

Ignore.

Oxford_Guy

In BG1 I like to have two thieves - Monteron (or CHARNAME, if he/she is a Fighter/Thief or Assassin) with focus on being a stealthy backstabber, and Imoen or Safana as my locks/traps utility thief and shortbow marksman...

For CHARNAME I think Fighter/Thief or Assassin is the most fun to play, though Bounty Hunter is quite cool, though takes some learning.

The Cleric/Thief option is interesting (being able to find traps whilst under sanctuary is fantastic), but the weapon choice is limiting, especially the backstab-able weapons (just clubs and staves, I think, plus some, but not all, of the weapons created from cleric spells - not sure exactly which ones can/can't though), and is not as powerful in a stand-up fight as a fighter/thief.

Gnomes Illusionist/Thieves are fun, but miss out on the necromancy spells, which I like as a mage/thief, so prefer elves for that role. Halflings make the best assassins and straight thieves (especially with the shorty bonuses to saving throws, and +1 THAC0 slings is nice), though elves run a close second, with the +1 THAC0 for all swords and bows (apart from crossbows) and 90% charm resistance. Also elves can romance in BG2, halflings can't without a mod (think Gnomes can romance Aerie, though).

Dwarves can make surprisingly good thieves, especially as trap specialists.

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ryuken87

@tilly

- There are no traps requiring over 100.
- 100 in each stealth you can get by but you'll occassionally fail. Boots of Stealth give you a boost but eventually you will want something like Human Flesh or Jansen Adventurewear in place of one of the stealth armours.
- Your calculations neglected the abundance of points you get free from level 1.
- A multi should be sufficient in everything upon completing chapter 5. If you can't wait then at the very least dual from a fighter at level 7.

Fish

It's a great idea. In BG1, I'd assign all points to detect traps and pick locks until each is at 100. Detect illusion becomes a very helpful skill in BG2 (even late in the game) but as @Brude suggests, not a rush in BG1. I really like Elf because they get a bonus with long sword and resistance to sleep and charm. Halflings have great bonuses to thieving as well. I really like how fast (comparatively) thieves gain level. It will make the game much more fun. A sneaking/backstabbing thief can be a fun strategy in the BG universe.